G-Z wrote:Never said anything about defence. But if I don't like intolerance from muso's in particular, and encounter it very seldom here actually. i think its important to keep things in perspective, and you miss an important aspect of 'facts' when you say that they are facts 'to you'...one of the most common tautology in the english language is an "incontrovertible fact", and i think you miss the 'incontrovertible' part of the definition of fact, unless you want to talk philosophy.
The only intolerance in my post was directed at you for making such a stupid fucking post of your own accusing people who don't like them of being "fucked up in the brain" and "Nazi worshippers."
If that isn't intolerance then I don't know what the fuck is. I've tried to keep things reasonable and good-humoured throughout this thread, and agreed to disagree with most of the fans, but anyone who is going to make posts like that one can just fuck off, as they deserve whatever they get.
And no I don't miss the 'incontrovertible' part of the word 'fact.' If you're going to be so pedantic about these things then you can't say anything
about music. It's probably not a proven fact
that the Beatles were great songwriters but that Sonic Youth are bad ones is just as close to being verifiable.
Oh yeah, I said they are among the most pretentious band in the world from the outset, and I think if you want to criticise them for anything, this would be the place to start and finish.
No it wouldn't. Why the fuck would it be? There's plenty of other stuff to criticise about them, as I already have done. The pretentiousness is just one aspect.
I'm sure loads of people who love guitars hate SY, and loads of people who love dance and R&D love SY. But generally speaking, people who don't like guitars I'd have thought would not like SY.
People who don't like guitars?
Penk wrote:See now this is where your zero (in)tolerance approach exposes an a bit of a nonsensical point of view i think. None of what you say is incontrovertible, none of it is fact.
Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't. But you're accusing everything I've said of being presented as 'fact.' I said that the band were incontrovertibly flawed in general, and I don't know how anyone
could aspire to claim otherwise, because even the most ardent fan would not suggest they were perfect. And aside from that I've said that they're bad at writing melodies. Which, to me, is true. In that department, they bring nothing new or interesting to the table. They're obvious, predictable and simplistic. Fair enough if you like
it, but it is nothing surprising or imaginative. I said that this was a fact to me
, and I think it is
the most obvious thing about them whenever I hear them. Plenty of other people say they like the melodies, I disagree. I've not really said it as a statement of fact
As for the rest of what I've said, it is my own opinion, one that is shared by several other people, and I've not claimed it's anything other than that. I've said that they fail to convince and that they're more about pose, but there's nothing there to prompt you to make the leap to assuming I'm presenting all
of my criticisms as facts.
And what is the difference between someone stating beliefs on here and someone getting paid to do it as a reviewer? A reviewer is never going to write "I think they're a bit crap," they're going to write "the melodies are weak, the production subdued and the performance woefully short on attitude." Although actually most reviewers will suck Sonic Youth's collective cock, because they're one of those bands who are seemingly exempt from criticism in the music press. But most people on here, myself included, frequently state things as facts. Some do little else.
Again, I'm not talking about good/bad, because those are opinions. If you don't like SY, fine, express your opinions as much as you want, but don't in any way put them foward as facts. Not even if they are facts to yourself, because there is no such reality.
You're repeating yourself.
I think you can accuse SY of a lot of things, and, as you note, I do...
Do you? I thought all you could accuse them of was pretentiousness?
but dull is not one of them. For me, they are an incredibly multi-dimensional band who experiment in the the true nature of the word, exposing a richly dark, bloody vein which connects jazz with indie rock. Again, whether you think any of it is 'good' or not is a matter of taste
I accused the melodies
of being dull. Not the band as a whole.
I'm not trying to do anyone any favours. I think this is objectively speaking something you can say about them.
I thought none of this was objective?
Your 'facts', as I see them, are by their nature deeply flawed, and I think you can have a far more informed debate about it.
Yes, you probably can, but I'm not prepared to listen to everything they've done to find the odd track that, maybe by a happy accident, maybe by freakish inspiration or design, contradicts what I say. Because I don't like them.
My 'facts' are only flawed in that they only refer to the songs I've heard. All of which have obvious, predictable tunes and don't interest me on a more cerebral, experimental level. And I'm not particularly interested in developing my knowledge of the band. But I would be very surprised if any of their lesser-known, less praised material turned out to prove me wrong.
influence: they have raised the profile of countless bands, both new and old, and are largely responsible for the regeneration of artists like sun ra and loads of jazz artists, in addition to the obvious 'grunge' influence. of course this was a kiss of death for many people, but SY are possibly the most influential band in art (in the most general possible way to use the term) that i can think of.
Doesn't mean they were any good.
I don't know what you're sighing for here. You present me with that, what am I supposed to say? I've already acknowledged several times
on the thread that they were influential and may well have been truly unique for a while, so I don't know what you were trying to achieve by just reiterating that and presenting it as an argument.
Oh, and "the most influential band in art"?