BCB 100 - The Smiths

[Penk!]

The truth is Morrissey's lyrics were deliberately ambiguous gender-wise which actually gave them a certain attractive mystery. There was certainly a homoeroticism to some of it, but frankly so fuckin' what.
Why has this become a point of criticism?

See my post near the top of page 11.

Or just save time get into the spirit of the thread and criticise something totally different you think somebody might have said in their silly smiths hating way.

It's not even stuff we've said though, it's just that they're so paranoid from listening to all that miserable Smiths stuff that they have to get in with their defences in anticipation of us coming up with new things to dislike about them.

[The Modernist]

The truth is Morrissey's lyrics were deliberately ambiguous gender-wise which actually gave them a certain attractive mystery. There was certainly a homoeroticism to some of it, but frankly so fuckin' what.
Why has this become a point of criticism?

See my post near the top of page 11.

Well I looked , but I can't see what you've said relevent to what I've just said.

[Copehead]

[You can pin and mount me like a butterfly "Pin and mount me" He's not addressing a woman, Oscar...
But "take me to the haven of your bed"
Was something that you never said
Two lumps, please
You're the bee's knees
But so am I

Oh, meet me at the fountain
Shove me on the patio
I'll take it slowly Once again--pretty explicit.
Oh ...

How literal you are. Is it inconceivable that a man would assume the persona of a woman to sing a song.

There is no mention of gender in the song, and anyone who thinks you can't be mounted by a woman if you are a man lacks experience and imagination.

One up to Oscar I'd say

[Penk!]

I can't see what you've said relevent to what I've just said.

I meant that it had become a point of criticism because the self-loathing fans wanted it to be but your post sums up this thread pretty well anyway

[Matt Wilson]

How literal you are. Is it inconceivable that a man would assume the persona of a woman to sing a song.

There is no mention of gender in the song, and anyone who thinks you can't be mounted by a woman if you are a man lacks experience and imagination.

One up to Oscar I'd say

Looks like somebody else is in denial then.

[Oscar]

The truth is Morrissey's lyrics were deliberately ambiguous gender-wise which actually gave them a certain attractive mystery. There was certainly a homoeroticism to some of it, but frankly so fuckin' what.
Why has this become a point of criticism?

See my post near the top of page 11.

Or just save time get into the spirit of the thread and criticise something totally different you think somebody might have said in their silly smiths hating way.

It's not even stuff we've said though, it's just that they're so paranoid from listening to all that miserable Smiths stuff that they have to get in with their defences in anticipation of us coming up with new things to dislike about them.

You see, and when the "Morrissey is Gay" bait falls flat on it's arse they start to criticise the fans. So predictable. And in it's own way, so gay!

[The Modernist]

It's not even stuff we've said though, it's just that they're so paranoid from listening to all that miserable Smiths stuff that they have to get in with their defences in anticipation of us coming up with new things to dislike about them.

Actually I defended your right to your opinion on this thread. You're becoming rather hysterical in your attempts to lump anyone who liked The Smiths as some sad obsessive.

[Oscar]

It's not even stuff we've said though, it's just that they're so paranoid from listening to all that miserable Smiths stuff that they have to get in with their defences in anticipation of us coming up with new things to dislike about them.

Actually I defended your right to your opinion on this thread. You're becoming rather hysterical in your attempts to lump anyone who liked The Smiths as some sad obsessive.

Handbags at dawn!

[Penk!]

You're becoming rather hysterical in your attempts to lump anyone who liked The Smiths as some sad obsessive.

You're just saying that because I said something nasty about Morrissey.

[Copehead]

, so to then pronounce him a hypocrit is ridiculous.

It smacks more of your distaste for the man than rationality

I didn't make the hypocrite comments, just found it very obvious what they were referring to when you were claiming ignorance.

I dont actually dislike morrissey either, he was very good for quite a while, then got shit in much the same way as 99% of other artists with similar length careers.

I just find the level of worship amusing in a slightly depressing way.

I don't worship the man.

But I find the use of the word hypocrite to describe him incredibly distateful.

It is an extreme word to use when you are criticising someone for being sexually ambiguous and for keeping the world ( or his fans ) guessing .

The thought that he should have to flaunt his sexlife across the music press to save himself from you and Penk thinking him a hypocrite is frankly appalling.

That is tabloid witch-hunt mentality, reveal all or we will destroy you.

Or in your case reveal all or you are an hypocrite

[Owen]

How the fuck is that 'my case' you knob. I didn't say ever it, just took a stab at suggesting what whoever did might have been on about.

Anyway he didn't keep anyone guessing. He either told them flat out about his sex life (ie that he was celibate) or deliberately lied about it.

Neither one is 'being ambiguous to keep people guessing'

[Copehead]

I stand by my point. Anyone who accuses Morrissey of hypocrisy because he didn't state his sexuality in the 80s is a prize arse.

[The Modernist]

I always took it he was uncertain and insecure in his sexuality, surely that was the point to the lyrics. The key motif in most of them is being simultaneously attracted and repelled by physical contact (from either sex).
The fact at 45 or whatever he is far more secure in his sexuality than at 24 hardly makes what he wrote then hypocritical, it just means he's changed as people do.
And no I'm not nor ever have been a Morrissey "worshipper" before that tedious line of attack gets wheeled out.

[Oscar]

Anyway he didn't keep anyone guessing. He either told them flat out about his sex life (ie that he was celibate) or deliberately lied about it.

Neither one is 'being ambiguous to keep people guessing'

I think his lyrics are intentionally ambiguous. He's keeping Matt Wilson guessing.

[Google_[Bot]]

How the fuck is that 'my case' you knob. I didn't say ever it, just took a stab at suggesting what whoever did might have been on about.

Actually Owen, you did eventually say "it does seem hypocritical".

I never understand these Smiths arguments. I think they're great but I can understand why some people might not like them; especially Morrissey. I think they're usually missing the point but that's just one man's opinion.
What I really can't understand is the rabid humourlessness of people who insist on attacking them and the people who like them. They seem to be offended by the band in a way that reminds me of my parents attitude to the Rolling Stones way back when.
Bizarre.

[Matt Wilson]

Anyway he didn't keep anyone guessing. He either told them flat out about his sex life (ie that he was celibate) or deliberately lied about it.

Neither one is 'being ambiguous to keep people guessing'

I think his lyrics are intentionally ambiguous. He's keeping Matt Wilson guessing.

No, Oscar, I'm not confused as to his sexuality at all.
You, on the other hand...

[Penk!]

What I really can't understand is the rabid humourlessness of people who insist on attacking them

It's because we get so annoyed at people like you sucking Morrissey's cock

[Oscar]

Anyway he didn't keep anyone guessing. He either told them flat out about his sex life (ie that he was celibate) or deliberately lied about it.

Neither one is 'being ambiguous to keep people guessing'

I think his lyrics are intentionally ambiguous. He's keeping Matt Wilson guessing.

No, Oscar, I'm not confused as to his sexuality at all.
You, on the other hand...

We're not talking about his sexuality, we're talking about the perspective of his lyrics. He is definitely a person who would get a kick out of causing confusion.

[Owen]

I always took it he was uncertain and insecure in his sexuality, surely that was the point to the lyrics. The key motif in most of them is being simultaneously attracted and repelled by physical contact (from either sex).
The fact at 45 or whatever he is far more secure in his sexuality than at 24 hardly makes what he wrote then hypocritical, it just means he's changed as people do.
And no I'm not nor ever have been a Morrissey "worshipper" before that tedious line of attack gets wheeled out.

Actually if we really have to get onto his sexuality I always took it as similar to the Kenneth williams style loathing of his own homosexual urges, a very pre-decriminalisation take on gayness.

and yes these days he seems more relaxed, which is nice, although he's made enough interview comments about people falling for his old lies to suggest he was probably happily shagging away back then as well. I hope so anyway, for his sake

[Owen]

How the fuck is that 'my case' you knob. I didn't say ever it, just took a stab at suggesting what whoever did might have been on about.

Actually Owen, you did eventually say "it does seem hypocritical".

I never understand these Smiths arguments. I think they're great but I can understand why some people might not like them; especially Morrissey.

Actually that's pretty much my opinion too. A lot of this has been because they are interesting to talk about, a bit because i was bored and a bit because i do genuinely find some of the fan response mystifying.

Most of it was tongue in cheek, it's something we've talked about enough times that i already know the actual opinions of the people in the thread i respect.

I do think the whole celibacy thing was a cop out, but i can understand why he did it