BCB 100 - The Smiths

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Copehead
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Postby Copehead » 19 Jun 2006, 20:05

Owen wrote:he didn't keep it private, he made it a manifesto point. Even if the celibacy was genuine he very clearly used his sexuality (or lack of it) as a gimmick.


He did keep his private life private. He claimed he was celebate and that he didn't much like sex and that was the end of it.

Do you really think that if he was whoring his way around the world in the 80s that there wouldn't be kiss and tell stories platered all over the press?

The argument that he is a hypocrit over his pronouncements about his sexuality is hysterical, as far as I can see he told the truth. There is no evidence to the contrary, as you have admitted, so to then pronounce him a hypocrit is ridiculous.

It smacks more of your distaste for the man than rationality
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Matt Wilson
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Postby Matt Wilson » 19 Jun 2006, 20:08

Oscar wrote: I think I would challenge you to prove that his lyrics weren't written from an asexual context or even from a female perspective. Get on with it.


OK then:

Reel Around the Fountain

It's time the tale were told
Of how you took a child
And you made him old Well, there you have it. An older guy seducing a yonger one.

Reel around the fountain
Slap me on the patio
I'll take it now
Oh ... "I'll take it now." Gee, what do you suppose he's talking about?

Fifteen minutes with you
Well, I wouldn't say no
Oh, people said that you were virtually dead
And they were so wrong

Fifteen minutes with you
Oh, well, I wouldn't say no
Oh, people said that you were easily led
And they were half-right
Oh, they ... oh, they were half-right, oh They were half right because the younger guy in the song led the older one into the sack just as much as the other way around, get it?

Fifteen minutes with you
Oh, I wouldn't say no
Oh, people see no worth in you
Oh, but I do.
Fifteen minutes with you
Oh, I wouldn't say no
Oh, people see no worth in you I'd say he's in love with the older one, no?
I do.
Oh, I ... oh, I do
Oh ...

I dreamt about you last night
And I fell out of bed twice
You can pin and mount me like a butterfly "Pin and mount me" He's not addressing a woman, Oscar...
But "take me to the haven of your bed"
Was something that you never said
Two lumps, please
You're the bee's knees
But so am I

Oh, meet me at the fountain
Shove me on the patio
I'll take it slowly Once again--pretty explicit.
Oh ...
Coan wrote:'Vertigo' is one of the best things U2 have ever done, one of a handful of occasions where they get it just right. That bit near the end where the song lifts off? You don't get that with The Allman Brothers.
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Owen
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Postby Owen » 19 Jun 2006, 20:11

Jarg Armani wrote:, so to then pronounce him a hypocrit is ridiculous.

It smacks more of your distaste for the man than rationality


I didn't make the hypocrite comments, just found it very obvious what they were referring to when you were claiming ignorance.

I dont actually dislike morrissey either, he was very good for quite a while, then got shit in much the same way as 99% of other artists with similar length careers.

I just find the level of worship amusing in a slightly depressing way.
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Butch Manly
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Postby Butch Manly » 19 Jun 2006, 20:17

Owen wrote: amusing in a slightly depressing way.


you've summed them up pretty well, there. :D
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Oscar
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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 20:20

Matt Wilson wrote:
Oscar wrote: I think I would challenge you to prove that his lyrics weren't written from an asexual context or even from a female perspective. Get on with it.


OK then:

Reel Around the Fountain


Boy with older woman. If it were a gay relationship, people wouldn't have said "he was easily led". They would have said "he's a right pufta that one". There's no evidence whatsoever that Morrissey is singing about a gay relationship.

"Slap me on the patio, I'll take it now". He's talking about the slap :roll:

"You can pin and mount me like a butterfly" - as a possesion. You don't fuck a butterfly, you display it.



Next!
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Matt Wilson
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Postby Matt Wilson » 19 Jun 2006, 20:21

Here's the next song on their debut:

You've Got Everything Now

As merry as the days were long
I was right and you were wrong
Back at the old grey school
I would win and you would lose So it's a tale of two guys (school friends?) and how they've ended up years later...

But you've got everything now
You've got everything now
And what a terrible mess I've made of my life
Oh, what a mess I've made of my life

No, I've never had a job
Because I've never wanted one
I've seen you smile
But I've never really heard you laugh
So who is rich and who is poor ?
I cannot say ... oh

You are your mother's only son
And you're a desperate one
Oh ...
But I don't want a lover
I just want to be seen ... oh ... in the back of your car Well, that's it then. Are you going to argue that there isn't a homosexual aspect of that statement? Hell, it isn't even a subtext in this song.

A friendship sadly lost ?
Well this is true ... and yet, It's false It's false becaue they never really were "friends." Lovers, probably.
Oh ...
But did I ever tell you, by the way ?
I never did like your face

But you've got everything now
You've got everything now
And what a terrible mess I've made of my life
Oh, what a mess I've made of my life

No, I've never had a job
Because I'm too shy
I've seen you smile
But I've never really heard you laugh
So who is rich and who is poor ?
I cannot say ... oh
Coan wrote:'Vertigo' is one of the best things U2 have ever done, one of a handful of occasions where they get it just right. That bit near the end where the song lifts off? You don't get that with The Allman Brothers.
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Oscar
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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 20:28

Matt Wilson wrote:Here's the next song on their debut:

You've Got Everything Now


He clearly says "I don't want a lover, I just want to be seen in the back of your car". Look again, I - don't - want - a - lover. Either from an asexual/celibate standpoint or from the perspective of a woman. Who's to say?



Next! Make it a good one this time.
Last edited by Oscar on 19 Jun 2006, 20:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Owen
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Postby Owen » 19 Jun 2006, 20:28

the giraffe is back wrote:
Owen wrote: amusing in a slightly depressing way.


you've summed them up pretty well, there. :D


:)
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Matt Wilson
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Postby Matt Wilson » 19 Jun 2006, 20:33

Pretty Girls Make Graves

Upon the sand, upon the bay
"There is a quick and easy way" you say
Before you illustrate
I'd rather state :
"I'm not the man you think I am
I'm not the man you think I am" He's not a heterosexual, in other words.
And Sorrow's native son
He will not smile for anyone

And Pretty Girls Make Graves
Oh ...

End of the pier, end of the bay
You tug my arm, and say : "Give in to lust,
Give up to lust, oh heaven knows we'll
Soon be dust ... "
Oh, I'm not the man you think I am
I'm not the man you think I am She wants some from Morrisey. Oh, is she barking up the wrong tree...

I could have been wild and I could have
Been free
But Nature played this trick on me This trick of making him gay, I guess.

She wants it Now
And she will not wait
But she's too rough
And I'm too delicate The girl is rougher than him.

Then, on the sand
Another man, he takes her hand
A smile lights up her face
(and well, it would) Of course it would. He's not gay.

I lost my faith in Womanhood
I lost my faith in Womanhood
I lost my faith ...
Oh ... Poor Morissey. :(

Hand in glove ...
The sun shines out of our behinds ... I'm sure he loved writing this.
Oh ...
Coan wrote:'Vertigo' is one of the best things U2 have ever done, one of a handful of occasions where they get it just right. That bit near the end where the song lifts off? You don't get that with The Allman Brothers.
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Owen
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Postby Owen » 19 Jun 2006, 20:38

Classic Prof wrote:Anyway, Owen I think it will have been ALB mentioning the person on the cover of one of his records being a lover. I don't think I did.


just seen this, yes i think you're right, sorry,
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Oscar
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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 20:39

Matt Wilson wrote: Pretty Girls Make Graves

Celibacy


Matt Wilson wrote: Hand in glove ...
The sun shines out of our behinds ...


Hmmmm. I'll pass on that one for a while.
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Matt Wilson
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Postby Matt Wilson » 19 Jun 2006, 20:42

Oscar wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote: Pretty Girls Make Graves

Celibacy


Celibacy?
So nature played the trick of celibacy on him? :lol:

You're truly grasping at straws now.
Coan wrote:'Vertigo' is one of the best things U2 have ever done, one of a handful of occasions where they get it just right. That bit near the end where the song lifts off? You don't get that with The Allman Brothers.
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Oscar
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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 20:59

Matt Wilson wrote:
Oscar wrote:
Matt Wilson wrote: Pretty Girls Make Graves

Celibacy


Celibacy?
So nature played the trick of celibacy on him? :lol:

You're truly grasping at straws now.


I think celibacy is the cruelest trick. It means you ain't getting any at all. Why wouldn't he write songs about celibacy? Wouldn't it reinforce his claim?
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Matt Wilson
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Postby Matt Wilson » 19 Jun 2006, 21:06

But why was he celibate?
Who was he saving it for? Do you think he wanted to marry the guy before he gave it up?

Honestly, Oscar--methinks you doth protest too much.
Coan wrote:'Vertigo' is one of the best things U2 have ever done, one of a handful of occasions where they get it just right. That bit near the end where the song lifts off? You don't get that with The Allman Brothers.
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Postby PENK » 19 Jun 2006, 21:08

Oscar wrote:the only direction you could all move in was the cheap n nasty "Morrissey is a gay!" stance.


Surely you've done this enough times to realise that that is the only reason any of us dislike them?
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Oscar
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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 21:14

Matt Wilson wrote:But why was he celibate?
Who was he saving it for? Do you think he wanted to marry the guy before he gave it up?

Honestly, Oscar--methinks you doth protest too much.


I think a possible reason for his celibacy was/is is his inability to come to terms with his sexuality, whatever that may be. Either way, he persistently claimed to be celibate and I think that this was the perspective he sometimes used in his lyrics.
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Oscar
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Postby Oscar » 19 Jun 2006, 21:15

Penk wrote:
Oscar wrote:the only direction you could all move in was the cheap n nasty "Morrissey is a gay!" stance.


Surely you've done this enough times to realise that that is the only reason any of us dislike them?
Yes, but I enjoy toying with you all.
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Postby The Modernist » 19 Jun 2006, 21:18

The truth is Morrissey's lyrics were deliberately ambiguous gender-wise which actually gave them a certain attractive mystery. There was certainly a homoeroticism to some of it, but frankly so fuckin' what.
Why has this become a point of criticism?
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PENK
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Postby PENK » 19 Jun 2006, 21:21

The Unique Modernist! wrote:The truth is Morrissey's lyrics were deliberately ambiguous gender-wise which actually gave them a certain attractive mystery. There was certainly a homoeroticism to some of it, but frankly so fuckin' what.
Why has this become a point of criticism?


See my post near the top of page 11.
Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.
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Owen
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Postby Owen » 19 Jun 2006, 21:23

Penk wrote:
The Unique Modernist! wrote:The truth is Morrissey's lyrics were deliberately ambiguous gender-wise which actually gave them a certain attractive mystery. There was certainly a homoeroticism to some of it, but frankly so fuckin' what.
Why has this become a point of criticism?


See my post near the top of page 11.


Or just save time get into the spirit of the thread and criticise something totally different you think somebody might have said in their silly smiths hating way.
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