BCB 100 - The Smiths

[Owen]

I was a huge fan and often defend them on here, but people are allowed to dislike them and voice that dislike.
The way Penk is being admonished on here for simply voicing an opinion is ridiculous. Luckilly he is a good humoured chap who takes these things with a thick skin.

I am happy for people to dislike the Smiths. That is their right. We cannot all like everything. Penk is allying the Smiths to a certain audience, with certain needs. He is completely wrong. If he wants to say why he does not like them, that is fine...but his line has been more " why they are crap now" rather than " how they were rubbish then". It is unfair, and ridiculous to judge a band on how they are percieved out side of the their time frame. It is absolutely vital that a bands music is primarily assessed as a part of the culture of the time.

Yes it is, but when people who actually like the band say they have a hard time seperating them from their time frame and can only really see them as part of the culture of the time the existance of modern teen fans is thrown up as proof of their timeless greatness.

Thats why the conversation went that way in the first place.

The smiths 'they were great but you had to be there to really get the whole picture and yeah some of it was just whiney, especially meat is murder' is a fairly balanced summary

[Bungo the Mungo]

Sure it made them stand out, but it wasn't just the humour that counter-balanced this. It was the defiance in the lyrics that really engaged me about them, lyrics like "I've never had a job because I never wanted one". I used to love that about them.

Me too. But you take my point - that Morrissey fans will always bang on about the wit in Smiths songs that apparently passes people by, and Mozz-haters will always decry the band as being miserable. Classic blind-leading-the-blind situation. Nobody learns, people get frustrated, both are at fault.

[Minnie, Boss of Appropriate Posting]

Sure it made them stand out, but it wasn't just the humour that counter-balanced this. It was the defiance in the lyrics that really engaged me about them, lyrics like "I've never had a job because I never wanted one". I used to love that about them.

Me too. But you take my point - that Morrissey fans will always bang on about the wit in Smiths songs that apparently passes people by, and Mozz-haters will always decry the band as being miserable. Classic blind-leading-the-blind situation. Nobody learns, people get frustrated, both are at fault.

No...just the ones that don't like The Smiths.

[Marquis de Scarborough]

The smiths 'they were great but you had to be there to really get the whole picture and yeah some of it was just whiney, especially meat is murder' is a fairly balanced summary

I disagree entirely.

I wasn't at University when The Smiths first hit. I was at primary school. I first heard The Smiths, and knew what it was, when i was about 14. Since then I have loved them, I have heard and bought everything I could by them. I wasn't part of any Uni set with a need to fit in. I wasn't part of the being there set either. I just heard This Charmless Man and took it from there.

I don't believe for one minute that you had to be there to get The Smiths. You either like them or you don't. Some of their material is weaker than other bits, nothing unusual there really is there. Same as every other recording artist then.

[Oscar]

Morrissey fans will always bang on about the wit in Smiths songs that apparently passes people by, and Mozz-haters will always decry the band as being miserable. Classic blind-leading-the-blind situation. Nobody learns, people get frustrated, both are at fault.

But I've jumped out of the loop and transcended the lot of you;

I can agree that Morrissey does have a voice that conveys the feeling of misery, anguish and suffering but come on, let's put him in a line with Scott Walker, Neil Young, Frank Sinatra, Ian Curtis, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, Leonard Cohen, Michael Stipe .... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

Live with it.

[Oscar]

The smiths 'they were great but you had to be there to really get the whole picture and yeah some of it was just whiney, especially meat is murder' is a fairly balanced summary

I disagree entirely.

I wasn't at University when The Smiths first hit. I was at primary school. I first heard The Smiths, and knew what it was, when i was about 14. Since then I have loved them, I have heard and bought everything I could by them. I wasn't part of any Uni set with a need to fit in. I wasn't part of the being there set either. I just heard This Charmless Man and took it from there.

I don't believe for one minute that you had to be there to get The Smiths. You either like them or you don't. Some of their material is weaker than other bits, nothing unusual there really is there. Same as every other recording artist then.

I've got a 22 year-old nephew who was into the Smiths when he was 15 (no influence from me) and so were his peer group. He also likes the Beatles. I keep telling him he had to be there in 1967 but he just ignores me!

[Tom Violence]

The smiths 'they were great but you had to be there to really get the whole picture and yeah some of it was just whiney, especially meat is murder' is a fairly balanced summary

I disagree entirely.

I wasn't at University when The Smiths first hit. I was at primary school. I first heard The Smiths, and knew what it was, when i was about 14. Since then I have loved them, I have heard and bought everything I could by them. I wasn't part of any Uni set with a need to fit in. I wasn't part of the being there set either. I just heard This Charmless Man and took it from there.

I don't believe for one minute that you had to be there to get The Smiths. You either like them or you don't. Some of their material is weaker than other bits, nothing unusual there really is there. Same as every other recording artist then.

Correct. I was one year old when their debut came out. It sounds brilliant to me, and to be honest I wish their had been a band around when I was a teenager a tenth as good as the smiths.

[Bungo the Mungo]

Anyway they had to succeed, right? It wasn't difficult. I loved the band, they were special, but what happened was like Mao turning up to entertain the Communist party rallies of 1983 after keeping them waiting for years with Thatcher, Stalin, and Blair. It wasn't so much that they found a niche, rather the chasm in the musical spectrum at the time.

[Owen]

The smiths 'they were great but you had to be there to really get the whole picture and yeah some of it was just whiney, especially meat is murder' is a fairly balanced summary

I disagree entirely.

I wasn't at University when The Smiths first hit. I was at primary school. I first heard The Smiths, and knew what it was, when i was about 14. Since then I have loved them, I have heard and bought everything I could by them. I wasn't part of any Uni set with a need to fit in. I wasn't part of the being there set either. I just heard This Charmless Man and took it from there.

I don't believe for one minute that you had to be there to get The Smiths. You either like them or you don't. Some of their material is weaker than other bits, nothing unusual there really is there. Same as every other recording artist then.

i'm pretty much the same age as you though, I think Meat is Murder is the first one I got into as it came out, i'd just started listening to Janice Long and the other more serious R1 shows, then someone at school did me a tape of the earlier stuff.

[The Modernist]

At least I've got my revenge on Dan.

[Oscar]

It wasn't so much that they found a niche, rather the chasm in the musical spectrum at the time.

The 'Chasm' would have always been there until they filled it no matter what year or what political or cultural climate.

[Bungo the Mungo]

It wasn't so much that they found a niche, rather the chasm in the musical spectrum at the time.

The 'Chasm' would have always been there until they filled it no matter what year or what political or cultural climate.

Fair point. Nobody ever sings about riding bicycles to lasses' houses in the rain just to look at their underwear on the line, right?

[Oscar]

It wasn't so much that they found a niche, rather the chasm in the musical spectrum at the time.

The 'Chasm' would have always been there until they filled it no matter what year or what political or cultural climate.

Fair point. Nobody ever sings about riding bicycles to lasses' houses in the rain just to look at their underwear on the line, right?

But Cinnamon Girl is a fantastic record though.

[Owen]

Correct. I was one year old when their debut came out. It sounds brilliant to me, and to be honest I wish their had been a band around when I was a teenager a tenth as good as the smiths.

there probably were, well based on the fact there have been plenty of bands much better than a tenth as good as the smiths every year since there definitely were.

I think this, and it's not about you honestly, is part of what was annoying me about the whole thing, yes the smiths are great, but part of the greatness was the fact that it was something new. Not in a 'it's old hat now' way let alone in a 'they weren't that good anyway' way, they clearly were, and certainly not in a 'they were ours hands off' way, but in that getting into new bands that are actually around is what it's all about at that age.

Yes some of us kind of pat youngsters on the heads for liking the beatles or ramones or smiths, trot out 'good taste for your age' bollocks, but there something wrong about it

[The Modernist]

The interesting thing about The Smiths was how aware they were of filling this chasm.
Everything about them was designed to counteract the rather baroque new pop that had taken hold by 84. Even the name was a deliberately plain countenance to all those silly long band names that were commonplace. They were very well thought through in that sense, arriving almost fully formed in terms of what they stood for. This magnified their impact considerably.

[Bungo the Mungo]

The interesting thing about The Smiths was how aware they were of filling this chasm.
Everything about them was designed to counteract the rather baroque new pop that had taken hold by 84. Even the name was a deliberately plain countenance to all those silly long band names that were commonplace. They were very well thought through in that sense, arriving almost fully formed in terms of what they stood for. This magnified their impact considerably.

But, like I said, it wasn't difficult. Mozz took a few years planning it out in his bedroom, nonetheless. That much was plain to see. And it was a little off-putting.

[Oscar]

But, like I said, it wasn't difficult. Mozz took a few years planning it out in his bedroom, nonetheless. That much was plain to see. And it was a little off-putting.

This is what I hate about Bob Dylan and John Lennon.

[Bungo the Mungo]

But, like I said, it wasn't difficult. Mozz took a few years planning it out in his bedroom, nonetheless. That much was plain to see. And it was a little off-putting.

This is what I hate about Bob Dylan and John Lennon.

Elaborate, please. In your own time!

[Marquis de Scarborough]

At least I've got my revenge on Dan.

Arse, and I've been quoted so many times it's not worth changing now.

Pesky Blur fans and their infiltrating mind powers.

[Oscar]

But, like I said, it wasn't difficult. Mozz took a few years planning it out in his bedroom, nonetheless. That much was plain to see. And it was a little off-putting.

This is what I hate about Bob Dylan and John Lennon.

Elaborate, please. In your own time!

Well bob dylan planned his destiny with great precision, as did Lennon (which is why he sacked pete best and why he nurtured the talentless sutcliffe). All very, very contrived.

I just think that you (and other critics) are starting to take the lead on the 'blinkered' theory. How can you revere Neil Young with his whiney voice and morbid themes on one hand and then criticise the smiths on the other?