BCB 100 - The Smiths

Threads and discussion dedicated to major acts.
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Postby PENK » 17 Jun 2006, 23:54

DiamondDog wrote:
Penk wrote:
Owen wrote:It's not really worth discussing though, they are the one band on here where it is impossible to actually have a debate however many threads there are, because people just see it as 'you're slagging off the smiths', get all misty eyed about the impact he had on them, and misread it as an accusation that there is something intrinsically teenage about them that you grow out of.


Quoted for emphasis.



actually, i was going to post about this earlier today. owen is wrong. if anything, it's the smiths-haters who are the more intransigent. certainly, they're the ones who come up with hackneyed comments like "miserable," "dreary" and depressing when they are clearly not.


Yeah but again it's often born out of frustration at the blithe denials of any more considered criticism by the fingers-in-ears brigade, deny it if you want but there's a definite tendency for the more rabid fans to be seemingly unable to accept that anyone might just not like the band.
Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.

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Postby Vic Snazell-Sprey » 17 Jun 2006, 23:58

Penk wrote:We've been through that already though, teenagers are getting into them for the miserabilism and the fact that they are now seen as the archetypal bedwetting student band, whether or not that was what they were in 1985 is irrelevant because it's why they are winning new 17-year-old fans now. For every one who likes them purely on a musical basis there will be half a dozen who like them because of "you go home and you cry and you want to die."


where did you get these facts from, ed? :?

you seem to be doing that classic inventing stuff to fit your own theories here.
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Postby Owen » 18 Jun 2006, 00:02

DiamondDog wrote:
Penk wrote:
Owen wrote:It's not really worth discussing though, they are the one band on here where it is impossible to actually have a debate however many threads there are, because people just see it as 'you're slagging off the smiths', get all misty eyed about the impact he had on them, and misread it as an accusation that there is something intrinsically teenage about them that you grow out of.


Quoted for emphasis.



actually, i was going to post about this earlier today. owen is wrong. if anything, it's the smiths-haters who are the more intransigent. certainly, they're the ones who come up with hackneyed comments like "miserable," "dreary" and "depressing" when they are clearly not.


they aren't mutally exclusive though, i kind of agree with you about the criticism, but there are definitely a bunch of 40 somethings here who wont hear a word against them and will defend the shittest morrissey utterence as if it was up there with the actual Smiths

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Postby PENK » 18 Jun 2006, 00:03

DiamondDog wrote:
Penk wrote:We've been through that already though, teenagers are getting into them for the miserabilism and the fact that they are now seen as the archetypal bedwetting student band, whether or not that was what they were in 1985 is irrelevant because it's why they are winning new 17-year-old fans now. For every one who likes them purely on a musical basis there will be half a dozen who like them because of "you go home and you cry and you want to die."


where did you get these facts from, ed? :?


From knowing a lot of people who've got into them because they're miserable. At uni most people I know didn't care for them, a couple of my housemates did buy Smiths albums and it was like they were their one 'depressing' band. That's the reputation they've earned, whether or not they deserved it.
At college it was more widespread though and it was always the faux-goth types who stood around looking moody and dressing in black who liked the Smiths, it seemed that 16-18 was the prime age to get into the Smiths which can't really have helped the image.
Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.

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Postby Owen » 18 Jun 2006, 00:05

i teach plenty of kids who are into that side of the smiths. it doesn't actually diminish the quality of the music but it is annoying

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Postby Vic Snazell-Sprey » 18 Jun 2006, 00:06

Penk wrote:
DiamondDog wrote:
Penk wrote:
Owen wrote:It's not really worth discussing though, they are the one band on here where it is impossible to actually have a debate however many threads there are, because people just see it as 'you're slagging off the smiths', get all misty eyed about the impact he had on them, and misread it as an accusation that there is something intrinsically teenage about them that you grow out of.


Quoted for emphasis.



actually, i was going to post about this earlier today. owen is wrong. if anything, it's the smiths-haters who are the more intransigent. certainly, they're the ones who come up with hackneyed comments like "miserable," "dreary" and depressing when they are clearly not.


Yeah but again it's often born out of frustration at the blithe denials of any more considered criticism by the fingers-in-ears brigade, deny it if you want but there's a definite tendency for the more rabid fans to be seemingly unable to accept that anyone might just not like the band.


as usual, the detractors are missing the point. of course you can dislike the band - we all dislike stuff that's held as "great" - but if you're going to come up with the usual lazy "they're a bit dreary" comments, expect a bit of flak.
Little Jim was no-one's fool - he owned the town's only jam butty mine.

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Postby PENK » 18 Jun 2006, 00:09

DiamondDog wrote:
Penk wrote:
DiamondDog wrote:
Penk wrote:
Owen wrote:It's not really worth discussing though, they are the one band on here where it is impossible to actually have a debate however many threads there are, because people just see it as 'you're slagging off the smiths', get all misty eyed about the impact he had on them, and misread it as an accusation that there is something intrinsically teenage about them that you grow out of.


Quoted for emphasis.



actually, i was going to post about this earlier today. owen is wrong. if anything, it's the smiths-haters who are the more intransigent. certainly, they're the ones who come up with hackneyed comments like "miserable," "dreary" and depressing when they are clearly not.


Yeah but again it's often born out of frustration at the blithe denials of any more considered criticism by the fingers-in-ears brigade, deny it if you want but there's a definite tendency for the more rabid fans to be seemingly unable to accept that anyone might just not like the band.


as usual, the detractors are missing the point. of course you can dislike the band - we all dislike stuff that's held as "great" - but if you're going to come up with the usual lazy "they're a bit dreary" comments, expect a bit of flak.


We get flak when we spend half an hour carefully detailing the sociological and personal conditions behind our dislike and explaining why we're not that keen on the music, so it's just easier to say "they're depressing" and get the same response.
Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.

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Postby Vic Snazell-Sprey » 18 Jun 2006, 00:12

Owen wrote:they aren't mutally exclusive though, i kind of agree with you about the criticism, but there are definitely a bunch of 40 somethings here who wont hear a word against them and will defend the shittest morrissey utterence as if it was up there with the actual Smiths


are there? :?

yompy, maybe (and i'm guessing there). who are you on about? i know i hate plenty of his solo stuff. i'm sure most - maybe all - smiths fans are like me to a greater or lesser extent. maybe it's just that we all have different cut off points than that rankles a bit.

i dunno*.





*do you see what i did there?
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Postby Vic Snazell-Sprey » 18 Jun 2006, 00:15

Owen wrote:it doesn't actually diminish the quality of the music


keep it quiet, please - we're talking about the smiths here. :roll:
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Postby Owen » 18 Jun 2006, 00:16

DiamondDog wrote:
are there? :?


there seemed to be when You are the quarry was about, people defending that shitty cromwell/royal family line as some sort of deep joke. Seeing bad TV appearances as his being above it all. Just this total brick wall whenever he was discussed.

Yomp, slim, prof, oscar, you to an extent. Minnie seems to fall into it but todays the first time i've noticed that. Jarg Armani is like it about most 80s brit indy but is definitely another, riverman when he's around

I'm sure if pushed all of you would admit bad songs along the way but it's still a level of fannishness that i wouldn't expect from any of you.

I loved, and in a non-playing beatlesy kind of way still love, the smiths, but the worship still seems weird to me

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Postby Vic Snazell-Sprey » 18 Jun 2006, 00:22

Owen wrote:i teach plenty of kids who are into that side of the smiths. it doesn't actually diminish the quality of the music but it is annoying


slider always plays the "bedwetter" card.

i remember when i was at college. i was fighting beautiful women off with a big stick. mike was an old harrovian. ian was a charismatic, good looking italian with a personality that would make immediately wish he was your best mate forever. george was a compelling, hilarious chancer who went on to write comedy for a living. john's dad was a lord and he couldn't give a flying fuck about anything. we all loved the smiths.

that loser thing just doesn't wash.
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Postby Vic Snazell-Sprey » 18 Jun 2006, 00:26

Owen wrote:
DiamondDog wrote:
are there? :?


there seemed to be when You are the quarry was about, people defending that shitty cromwell/royal family line as some sort of deep joke. Seeing bad TV appearances as his being above it all. Just this total brick wall whenever he was discussed.


i'll always defend you are the quarry because i think it's a great record (we won't go into why, here). i'm on record here as thinking the new one stinks.

and yet i'm probably characterised as a mozzer defender.

so who exactly is at fault?
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Postby PENK » 18 Jun 2006, 00:28

DiamondDog wrote:that loser thing just doesn't wash.


You're doing the blind defence thing now though, because we're talking more about the way they're perceived now and as Owen and I have both pointed out the majority of school and college-age Smiths fans these days are into them because of the bedwetting side of it. Obviously I don't know whether this was their appeal while they were a going concern and from what you and other people have said here I'm inclined to believe that it wasn't the case but for whatever reason and however true, that's become their enduring image and how people think of them now.
And people have said that the other side of them, the social commentary, has lost its impact as it's lost its relevance, that it was very much of its time, so of course people will be less inclined to place any importance on that.
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Postby Vic Snazell-Sprey » 18 Jun 2006, 00:30

Penk wrote: as Owen and I have both pointed out the majority of school and college-age Smiths fans these days are into them because of the bedwetting side of it.


how do you know?
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Postby Vic Snazell-Sprey » 18 Jun 2006, 00:31

DiamondDog wrote:
Penk wrote: as Owen and I have both pointed out the majority of school and college-age Smiths fans these days are into them because of the bedwetting side of it.


how do you know?


and why does it matter?
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Postby Owen » 18 Jun 2006, 00:32

DiamondDog wrote:
Owen wrote:i teach plenty of kids who are into that side of the smiths. it doesn't actually diminish the quality of the music but it is annoying


slider always plays the "bedwetter" card.

i remember when i was at college. i was fighting beautiful women off with a big stick. mike was an old harrovian. ian was a charismatic, good looking italian with a personality that would make immediately wish he was your best mate forever. george was a compelling, hilarious chancer who went on to write comedy for a living. john's dad was a lord and he couldn't give a flying fuck about anything. we all loved the smiths.

that loser thing just doesn't wash.


it didn't then no, everyone under a certain age who was really into music loved the smiths except Hamon. it does for a lot of the new recruits though, i see the other stuff they listen to, it's totally humourless emo stuff. they really dont get the joke. Honestly.

It's not a general thing, I know Ali loved them (although she seems to have grown out of them :) ) it sounds like Matt does. there are always exceptions, but there are a lot of teenage fans who like them because they also like a bunch of acts who really are totally earnestly saying the things the smiths were always accused of.

and no you didn't defend that blindly, you always admitted to not liking some of his other stuff (and dont like the new one iirc)

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Postby The Fish » 18 Jun 2006, 00:35

DiamondDog wrote:it's the smiths-haters who are the more intransigent. certainly, they're the ones who come up with hackneyed comments like "miserable," "dreary" and "depressing" when they are clearly not.


Exactly. The Smiths for me = joy

There's been votes aplenty for the 1st album but (love it as I do) I'll pass for reasons stated (if not miserable then it is as least a bit dense).

Album: Hatful of Hollow/The World Won't Listen (Any Smiths fan could survive on these two)

Track: Probably THis Charming Man if push came to shove but am I alone in loving that run of late singles (Panic/Ask/Shoplifters of The World Unite)
We're way past rhubarb

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Postby PENK » 18 Jun 2006, 00:37

DiamondDog wrote:
Penk wrote: as Owen and I have both pointed out the majority of school and college-age Smiths fans these days are into them because of the bedwetting side of it.


how do you know?


Reasons detailed above. Obviously I can't speak for all Smiths fans but the law of averages suggests it's the case, because there are going to be surly black-clad pseudo-goths at every college around the country and correct me if I'm wrong but the music is probably a secondary consideration when every single band they show an interest in is regarded as the refuge of alienated and depressed teens. And the less avid music fans I know certainly liked the Smiths for their qualities as a band to listen to while staring at the ceiling and wishing you were someone else.

and why does it matter?


I've forgotten.
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Postby Vic Snazell-Sprey » 18 Jun 2006, 00:41

Penk wrote:
DiamondDog wrote:
Penk wrote: as Owen and I have both pointed out the majority of school and college-age Smiths fans these days are into them because of the bedwetting side of it.


how do you know?


Reasons detailed above. Obviously I can't speak for all Smiths fans but the law of averages suggests it's the case, because there are going to be surly black-clad pseudo-goths at every college around the country and correct me if I'm wrong but the music is probably a secondary consideration when every single band they show an interest in is regarded as the refuge of alienated and depressed teens. And the less avid music fans I know certainly liked the Smiths for their qualities as a band to listen to while staring at the ceiling and wishing you were someone else.


and this means they're shit?
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Postby PENK » 18 Jun 2006, 00:43

DiamondDog wrote:
Penk wrote:
DiamondDog wrote:
Penk wrote: as Owen and I have both pointed out the majority of school and college-age Smiths fans these days are into them because of the bedwetting side of it.


how do you know?


Reasons detailed above. Obviously I can't speak for all Smiths fans but the law of averages suggests it's the case, because there are going to be surly black-clad pseudo-goths at every college around the country and correct me if I'm wrong but the music is probably a secondary consideration when every single band they show an interest in is regarded as the refuge of alienated and depressed teens. And the less avid music fans I know certainly liked the Smiths for their qualities as a band to listen to while staring at the ceiling and wishing you were someone else.


and this means they're shit?


No, when did I suggest that?
Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.