BCB 100 - The Smiths

[The Fish]

it's the smiths-haters who are the more intransigent. certainly, they're the ones who come up with hackneyed comments like "miserable," "dreary" and "depressing" when they are clearly not.

Exactly. The Smiths for me = joy

There's been votes aplenty for the 1st album but (love it as I do) I'll pass for reasons stated (if not miserable then it is as least a bit dense).

Album: Hatful of Hollow/The World Won't Listen (Any Smiths fan could survive on these two)

Track: Probably THis Charming Man if push came to shove but am I alone in loving that run of late singles (Panic/Ask/Shoplifters of The World Unite)

[Penk!]

as Owen and I have both pointed out the majority of school and college-age Smiths fans these days are into them because of the bedwetting side of it.

how do you know?

Reasons detailed above. Obviously I can't speak for all Smiths fans but the law of averages suggests it's the case, because there are going to be surly black-clad pseudo-goths at every college around the country and correct me if I'm wrong but the music is probably a secondary consideration when every single band they show an interest in is regarded as the refuge of alienated and depressed teens. And the less avid music fans I know certainly liked the Smiths for their qualities as a band to listen to while staring at the ceiling and wishing you were someone else.

and why does it matter?

I've forgotten.

[Penk!]

as Owen and I have both pointed out the majority of school and college-age Smiths fans these days are into them because of the bedwetting side of it.

how do you know?

Reasons detailed above. Obviously I can't speak for all Smiths fans but the law of averages suggests it's the case, because there are going to be surly black-clad pseudo-goths at every college around the country and correct me if I'm wrong but the music is probably a secondary consideration when every single band they show an interest in is regarded as the refuge of alienated and depressed teens. And the less avid music fans I know certainly liked the Smiths for their qualities as a band to listen to while staring at the ceiling and wishing you were someone else.

and this means they're shit?

No, when did I suggest that?

[Penk!]

as Owen and I have both pointed out the majority of school and college-age Smiths fans these days are into them because of the bedwetting side of it.

how do you know?

Reasons detailed above. Obviously I can't speak for all Smiths fans but the law of averages suggests it's the case, because there are going to be surly black-clad pseudo-goths at every college around the country and correct me if I'm wrong but the music is probably a secondary consideration when every single band they show an interest in is regarded as the refuge of alienated and depressed teens. And the less avid music fans I know certainly liked the Smiths for their qualities as a band to listen to while staring at the ceiling and wishing you were someone else.

and this means they're shit?

No, when did I suggest that?

well, you seem to hold it against them.

What's given you that idea? It's just an observation.

[Penk!]

an observation that seems to be commonly held against the band, for no decent reason.

my point is that it doesn't matter who likes them or why they like them. they're still quite clearly one of the best bands ever - maybe even better than the chocolate watch band.

and yet they are burdened by all this shit by their detractors and then their fans are accused of being unreasonable.

Do the smiley and the Chocolate Watch Band reference denote that you're taking the piss? At this stage I honestly can't tell.
But whether they're depressing or not isn't the problem. I don't mind a bit of misery, I just don't like the way the Smiths do it, and as I've said over and over again that's down to personal taste.
They are one of the greatest bands of all time in terms of significance, yes, although I'd still maintain that whatever their fans might say, they aren't the second best, or most important band of all time by any stretch of the imagination. If you feel that way personally then admit it's the case but no band with so many detractors can possibly have a justifiable claim on this kind of accolade.
Yes, the fans are off-putting but that isn't what makes people decide not to like the band. It wouldn't be anywhere near the top of a list of reasons for not liking them even after deciding they weren't all that, it's just a minor consideration.
The problem is that these threads just end up going in circles with people like me going "I don't like them and you lot can't accept that" and people like you going "they're the best thing ever and you lot can't accept that" and it doesn't get us anywhere, and never will.

[Marquis de Scarborough]

They are one of the greatest bands of all time in terms of significance, yes, although I'd still maintain that whatever their fans might say, they aren't the second best, or most important band of all time by any stretch of the imagination. If you feel that way personally then admit it's the case but no band with so many detractors can possibly have a justifiable claim on this kind of accolade.

Then no band EVER can have that kind of accolade. Even on this board, where there is a serious amount of knowledge and a huge range of tastes, we can't agree in anyway on a band/artist that could hold that sort of title.

It's all subjective isn't it? There is no right and wrong answer, only opinion. I can understand why many don't like The Smiths, yet I can also see what there is to love about them.

I don't hold with the bedwetting argument at all. I have never met any Smiths fan that have behaved like that. I can only see the faux goths that you refer to using The Smiths as an example of what they like simply because they think it suits their oh so original image, and will give them some level of gravitas, when it actually makes them look like sad cunts. Chances are they couldn't name a track that wasn't a single.

I also don't see the misery angle either. In general I've always found Smiths lyrics to be some of the wittiest and most humourous. I know I'm not alone. Yes, there are some moment of whimsy, but who is happy all the time?

If you don't like them, fine. I do, and I'm happy with that.

[Oscar]

Seeing The Smiths as miserable is such a one dimensional opinion. But it is a predictable one. Leonard Cohen is depressing, Bob Dylan is a folk singer, Rap is aggressive and sexist and homophobic, The Beatles are a pop group. When people criticise The Smiths face-to-face they always feign a tortured look and adopt a mock whine and sing 'Heaven knows I'm miserable now'. They never sing;

"Oh, I didn't realise that you wrote poetry
I didn't realise you wrote such bloody awful poetry, Mr. Shankly".

Or

"As Rose collects the money in a cannister
Who comes sliding down the bannister ?
The vicar in a tutu"

Or

"As Anthony said to Cleopatra
As he opened a crate of ale :

Oh, I say :
Some girls are bigger than others
Some girls are bigger than others
Some girl's mothers are bigger than
Other girl's mothers "

Also, can anyone name me a group or artist that was not contrived? I can't think of one.

And why is a performers artistic merit so dependent on their ability to have a decent interview with Johnathan Ross?

I think people who can't see the genius of the smiths and of morrissey, simply can't see it. I think people who go off the smiths or morrissey simply get bored of listening to them.

[Marquis de Scarborough]

Listen to Oscar at this point!

[yomptepi]

Absolutely spot on Len. It is clear that Penk has never even heard the Smiths. His desperate grasping for aquired knowledge, and " everybody knows" line of argument is the sound of a man in desperate trouble. You cannot have a serious debate with a man who's sole line of argument is " a few of the blokes I lived with at college bought them because they wanted to be miserable". That is prime bullshit. And for that same dumb poster to then go elsewhere and defend catshit like Blur, makes it all the more insulting. I suggest Penk locks himself in a room with The Queen is dead and Louder than bombs for a few days, and then comes back here when he has an opinion to give.

I know I am perceived as one of the people who defend Moz in his every action...and it is true to an extent. But I didn't really like Viva Hate, Southpaw Grammar or the new record. And I was never totally smitten with Strangeways...

I am happy to talk about the Smiths at any time, but what is the point of doing so with people like Penk, who have absolutely nothing of any worth to add to the debate.

[The Modernist]

I was a huge fan and often defend them on here, but people are allowed to dislike them and voice that dislike.
The way Penk is being admonished on here for simply voicing an opinion is ridiculous. Luckilly he is a good humoured chap who takes these things with a thick skin.

[yomptepi]

I was a huge fan and often defend them on here, but people are allowed to dislike them and voice that dislike.
The way Penk is being admonished on here for simply voicing an opinion is ridiculous. Luckilly he is a good humoured chap who takes these things with a thick skin.

I am happy for people to dislike the Smiths. That is their right. We cannot all like everything. Penk is allying the Smiths to a certain audience, with certain needs. He is completely wrong. If he wants to say why he does not like them, that is fine...but his line has been more " why they are crap now" rather than " how they were rubbish then". It is unfair, and ridiculous to judge a band on how they are percieved out side of the their time frame. It is absolutely vital that a bands music is primarily assessed as a part of the culture of the time. Sure, it has to be able to stand the test of time, but it is defined by the events that forged it. Penk does not seem to understand this.

[Bungo the Mungo]

One thing that irks me when discussion turns to the Smiths is their fans' relentless and slightly condescending pointing-out of the 'missed humour' in their music. We're not dopes and we can see that Morrissey used wit slyly in many of his songs - but there are also many moments of huge self-pity with nothing to lighten the load.

Glumfests like 'Wonderful Woman', 'I Know It's Over', 'Accept Yourself', and 'Meat Is Murder' do not feature Wildean one-liners, puns, or self-deprecating quips. They're miserable. Utterly grey. And Marr's guitar - often sparkling and light - can drag songs further down into rainy tedium, too, with its mid-paced, repeated riffing. The first album has plenty examples.

[The Modernist]

One thing that irks me when discussion turns to the Smiths is their fans' relentless and slightly condescending pointing-out of the 'missed humour' in their music. We're not dopes and we can see that Morrissey used wit slyly in many of his songs - but there are also many moments of huge self-pity with nothing to lighten the load.

Glumfests like 'Wonderful Woman', 'I Know It's Over', 'Accept Yourself', and 'Meat Is Murder' do not feature Wildean one-liners, puns, or self-deprecating quips. They're miserable. Utterly grey. And Marr's guitar - often sparkling and light - can drag songs further down into rainy tedium, too, with its mid-paced, repeated riffing. The first album has plenty examples.

I really wouldn't disagree with this actually, it was something they were occasionally prone to. I would only say that I don't think this side was as plentiful as you say, certainly not on the first album where only "Suffer The Children" really fits into the category you've described.

[Marquis de Scarborough]

yeah, some tracks are on the maudlin side, but isn't it just as bad for people to class The Smiths as miserablist or for fans to point out the humour. It's a vicious circle really. If people stopped generalising and pigeonholing the Smiths as miserable wankers then I'd stop pointing out that they're actually quite funny really. If people make idiotic remarks I'll treat them like idiots.

[The Modernist]

You bastard Dan!

[yomptepi]

It is surreal that the Smiths are being debated with a blur fan and a spandau ballet fan.

surreal and sick.

[The Modernist]

It is surreal that the Smiths are being debated with a blur fan and a spandau ballet fan.

surreal and sick.

But...but..

goes off in rage to find kilt and ruffled shirt

[Bungo the Mungo]

One thing that irks me when discussion turns to the Smiths is their fans' relentless and slightly condescending pointing-out of the 'missed humour' in their music. We're not dopes and we can see that Morrissey used wit slyly in many of his songs - but there are also many moments of huge self-pity with nothing to lighten the load.

Glumfests like 'Wonderful Woman', 'I Know It's Over', 'Accept Yourself', and 'Meat Is Murder' do not feature Wildean one-liners, puns, or self-deprecating quips. They're miserable. Utterly grey. And Marr's guitar - often sparkling and light - can drag songs further down into rainy tedium, too, with its mid-paced, repeated riffing. The first album has plenty examples.

I really wouldn't disagree with this actually, it was something they were occasionally prone to. I would only say that I don't think this side was as plentiful as you say, certainly not on the first album where only "Suffer The Children" really fits into the category you've described.

I haven't heard the album for a while but I'd say there's more than one song like that there. In fact, scanning the tracklist I'd honestly say the whole album - with the exception of 'This Charming Man' and 'Hand In Glove' - is a miserable, washed-out affair. Either musically, or lyrically, or both.

I just don't think it's missing the point to see the Smiths as a 'miserable' band. It's what they used as a selling point, really - a deliberate move (altho' clearly an extension of Morrissey's personality). It certainly made them stand out amidst all the sex-and-cocktails jollity of bands like Wham! back in 1985.

[Oscar]

I know I am perceived as one of the people who defend Moz in his every action...and it is true to an extent. But I didn't really like Viva Hate, Southpaw Grammar or the new record. And I was never totally smitten with Strangeways...

I feel quite justified in defending one of the most powerful icons of recent history. Even Morrissey is allowed to have some ups and downs in his career, so we can forgive him that.

I suppose, if I drop my defence for a moment, that I can agree that Morrissey does have a voice that conveys the feeling of misery, anguish and suffering but come on, let's put him in a line with Scott Walker, Neil Young, Frank Sinatra, Ian Curtis, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, Leonard Cohen, Michael Stipe .... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

[The Modernist]

Sure it made them stand out, but it wasn't just the humour that counter-balanced this. It was the defiance in the lyrics that really engaged me about them, lyrics like "I've never had a job because I never wanted one". I used to love that about them.