BCB 100 - The Smiths

Do we know what we like? We even talk about it!
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Oscar52
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Postby Oscar52 » 19 Jun 2006, 08:53

the name is Coan wrote:Some Smiths' songs were miserable. That's the truth. I don't know why some people have a hard time with that.


Blinkers! Blinkers! Blinkers! Blinkers! Blinkers! Blinkers!

Oscar wrote:I can agree that Morrissey does have a voice that conveys the feeling of misery, anguish and suffering but come on, let's put him in a line with Scott Walker, Neil Young, Frank Sinatra, Ian Curtis, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, Leonard Cohen, Michael Stipe .... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc


This statement seems to have been conveniently neglected. How miserable is Scott Walker? More so than Morrissey I would say. But it never seems to be a regular topic of discussion. It's never the first thing you expect to hear when you mention his name. "God, that scott walker blokes a miserable cunt isn't he?". Same goes for the rest of the artists I mentioned (and I can add to that if need be - particularly that whining dylan bloke). When I hear Frank Sinatra sing "Autumn Leaves" it breaks my fucking heart. Here's a man who doesn't fear to wear his emotions on his sleeve. A man's man who can convey heartbreak and misery like no other (well, maybe johnny ray ... and tim buckley .... ). Listen to the albums "Where Are You", "Close To You" or "Point Of No Return". They're all full of anguish and sadness but I've never known anyone walk away from them, shaking their heads and uttering "Miserable fucker!". Same with Neil Young. People will revere "Down By The River", which is a world of misery in itself sang with such a miserable whine, and then criticise Morrissey for being miserable.

So I would say that we celebrate misery in song and in doing so we are able to understand and experience it from the safety of our armchairs. So why does this make some people angry? Particularly when Morrissey is involved? This is why fans get so defensive. Because it seems to be more about Morrissey as a person than Morrissey as a performer.




Anyway, kids to school and all that.


Later maybe!

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northernsky
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Postby northernsky » 19 Jun 2006, 10:11

Favourite album: despite the fantastically original, single-minded and complete debut, it has to be The Queen is Dead on weight of songs.

Favourite song: "The Headmaster Ritual". A tour de force for their uniquely skewed vocals and guitars.

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Tom Violence
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Postby Tom Violence » 19 Jun 2006, 11:09

Genius song. 8-)

Belligerent ghouls
run Manchester schools
spineless swines
cemented minds

Sir leads the troops
jealous of youth
same old suit since 1962
he does the military two-step
down the nape of my neck
I'm the sort who gets out of a bath with a dirty face

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The Slider
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Postby The Slider » 19 Jun 2006, 12:00

It is arch and sort of amusing because of its absurd overwroughtness.

And that, my friends, is The Smiths and all they are, were and ever will be - encapsulated.
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Postby Bungo the Mungo » 19 Jun 2006, 12:15

The Slider wrote:It is arch and sort of amusing because of its absurd overwroughtness.

And that, my friends, is The Smiths and all they are, were and ever will be - encapsulated.


Sometimes pithiness will not suffice, John. As Mr. Penk will attest. :wink:

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PENK
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Postby PENK » 19 Jun 2006, 12:16

the name is Coan wrote:
The Slider wrote:It is arch and sort of amusing because of its absurd overwroughtness.

And that, my friends, is The Smiths and all they are, were and ever will be - encapsulated.


Sometimes pithiness will not suffice, John. As Mr. Penk will attest. :wink:


He is right though. I said earlier on the thread - although as Oscar remarked of your comment, it seems to have been conveniently neglected - that I'm perfectly happy to wallow in musical misery, I just don't like the way the Smiths do it.
Darkness_Fish wrote:One slight disappointment was that there turns out to be two cinemas in Bolton

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Brother Spoon
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Postby Brother Spoon » 19 Jun 2006, 12:55

There are two things I can't stand about the Smiths and none of them are Marr, Joyce or Rourke.

The Oscar Wildean wit. Certainly the worst part of David Bowie's influence on British popmusic is the idea that it is not only ok to live a decadent life but to make it a central philosophical point of your public persona and music. It is not profound, it is not interesting and it isn't funny in the slightest. And no, repeating the same joke over and over again doesn't make it more bearable.

The stereotype gayness of it all. Some of my best friends etc. blah blah blah.
Image
Meet Luigi, Italian stereotype on the Simpsons. When Luigi appears on the screen, it makes me laugh that he is such a blown-up cartoon stereotype. I would however not consider purchasing a record of his songs and poetry.
Image
Meet Morrissey. He's a hairdresser with flowers up his trousers, isn't he? The inverse Henry Rollins.
Fair enough of course, but it does not speak to me at all.
I'll stick to my Ted Nugent records.

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PENK
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Postby PENK » 19 Jun 2006, 13:01

Spoon Wearing Disguises wrote:The stereotype gayness of it all. Some of my best friends etc. blah blah blah.
Image
Meet Luigi, Italian stereotype on the Simpsons. When Luigi appears on the screen, it makes me laugh that he is such a blown-up cartoon stereotype. I would however not consider purchasing a record of his songs and poetry.
Image
Meet Morrissey. He's a hairdresser with flowers up his trousers, isn't he? The inverse Henry Rollins.
Fair enough of course, but it does not speak to me at all.
I'll stick to my Ted Nugent records.


Idon't really mind that actually. I guess if I'm honest Morrissey's hypocritical refusal to admit his sexuality is probably a bit annoying but in the end it's his decision and he paid for it by not getting any. But it's only something that affected the way he performed rather than the music - he was arch and fey but that doesn't bother me too much. Certainly not in the way that something like Antony and the Johnsons does - that kind of thing is basically someone screaming "look at me! I'm so gay! Isn't that great? I'm gay!" and I just think "why should I care?" and it annoys me because he's trying to make it a selling point.
The Smiths don't have that effect on me and I never noticed it creeping into their music all that much, plenty of artists have a fey persona without crossing over into full-blown camp and Morrissey is no exception.
Darkness_Fish wrote:One slight disappointment was that there turns out to be two cinemas in Bolton

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Postby Xeopac » 19 Jun 2006, 13:03

I love how much Morrissey gets to people by refusing to play the game so often.
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Brother Spoon
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Postby Brother Spoon » 19 Jun 2006, 13:06

Penk wrote:
But it's only something that affected the way he performed rather than the music


Sorry, I don't get this.
Do you recommend I study the sheet music instead of listening to the records? There's not much chance of buying one of his records and not having him perform on it, is there? :?

It's only my own personal appreciation, of course. But yes, 'full blown camp' is a good way of putting it. That's what I hear.

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The Prof
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Postby The Prof » 19 Jun 2006, 13:12

I think the pair of you are banging your heads very hard on the wrong door.

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Brother Spoon
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Postby Brother Spoon » 19 Jun 2006, 13:16

Classic Prof wrote:I think the pair of you are banging your heads very hard on the wrong door.


We were only trying to get a room.

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Oscar52
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Postby Oscar52 » 19 Jun 2006, 13:21

Penk wrote:I'm perfectly happy to wallow in musical misery, I just don't like the way the Smiths do it.


Is the correct answer. God, this is like working in the reception class at the infants. Deeeeerrrrrrrr!

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Postby drama queen » 19 Jun 2006, 14:09

The Smiths? What a buch of cunts! Morrissey is miserable because he fucking moans through half of his songs.

"Whoooaaaaaaa- ooohhhhhhh - whoooooaaaaaaaaa - ooooohhhhh .... hand in glove
the sun shines out of my minge"


What a twat!

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Mike Boom
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Postby Mike Boom » 19 Jun 2006, 14:39

It was the "MARGARET ON THE GUILLOTINE" thing that did it, right?

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Postby drama queen » 19 Jun 2006, 14:53

Mike Boom wrote:It was the "MARGARET ON THE GUILLOTINE" thing that did it, right?


How childish was that song? I'll tell you honestly it made me laugh more than it made me cry. I'd like to be locked in a room with him for 10 minutes, I'd slap the bastard senseless. I reckon that's what he's always been short of. I hear is mother was a bit of a loon. maybe she tampered with him or something and that's what sent him a bit gay.

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PENK
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Postby PENK » 19 Jun 2006, 14:55

Spoon Wearing Disguises wrote:
Penk wrote:
But it's only something that affected the way he performed rather than the music


Sorry, I don't get this.
Do you recommend I study the sheet music instead of listening to the records? There's not much chance of buying one of his records and not having him perform on it, is there? :?

It's only my own personal appreciation, of course. But yes, 'full blown camp' is a good way of putting it. That's what I hear.


Fair enough, in that case you just see it in a different way. I just meant that I thought that the gayness of it all was more noticeable in his prancing round with flowers and quiffs rather than being all that evident in the singing.
Darkness_Fish wrote:One slight disappointment was that there turns out to be two cinemas in Bolton

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Brother Spoon
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Postby Brother Spoon » 19 Jun 2006, 15:01

Penk wrote:
Spoon Wearing Disguises wrote:
Penk wrote:
But it's only something that affected the way he performed rather than the music


Sorry, I don't get this.
Do you recommend I study the sheet music instead of listening to the records? There's not much chance of buying one of his records and not having him perform on it, is there? :?

It's only my own personal appreciation, of course. But yes, 'full blown camp' is a good way of putting it. That's what I hear.


Fair enough, in that case you just see it in a different way. I just meant that I thought that the gayness of it all was more noticeable in his prancing round with flowers and quiffs rather than being all that evident in the singing.


Ah, I see. I actually haven't seen that much Smiths footage (or any that I can think of really). I've heard about his performing schtick, but that was after I'd formed an opinion on the music. For me, it's in the lyrics and the delivery.

Still, nothing wrong with the backing tracks. :D

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Pat O'Banton
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Postby Pat O'Banton » 19 Jun 2006, 18:26

Spoon Wearing Disguises wrote:There are two things I can't stand about the Smiths and none of them are Marr, Joyce or Rourke.

The Oscar Wildean wit. Certainly the worst part of David Bowie's influence on British popmusic is the idea that it is not only ok to live a decadent life but to make it a central philosophical point of your public persona and music.


interesting that you see it that way. i suppose there might be aspects of decadence to the smiths but the overarching vibe to them for me was an almost puritanical lack of decadence. i suppose there was a hint of degeneracy but really they were in many ways reacting to the general air of decadence in much of early eighties pop.

The stereotype gayness of it all. Some of my best friends etc. blah blah blah.
Image
Meet Luigi, Italian stereotype on the Simpsons. When Luigi appears on the screen, it makes me laugh that he is such a blown-up cartoon stereotype. I would however not consider purchasing a record of his songs and poetry.
Image
Meet Morrissey. He's a hairdresser with flowers up his trousers, isn't he? The inverse Henry Rollins.
Fair enough of course, but it does not speak to me at all.
I'll stick to my Ted Nugent records.


the "stereotype gayness"? i'm not sure that anyone was quite sure of his sexuality at the time. it never seemed to be commented upon, really. celibacy, yes. homosexuality, no. of course, he was subverting the form by being willfully unmanly and anti-macho but i've never really been overly aware of any "stereotype gayness."
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Postby Copehead » 19 Jun 2006, 18:30

Penk wrote:[ I guess if I'm honest Morrissey's hypocritical refusal to admit his sexuality is probably a bit annoying .


So his refusal to give you full access to his personal life is hypocritical and annoying.

OK
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