Champions League play-offs?

[Penk!]

... which just goes to show how clueless Sky are, as he is Swedish. Martin Hansson, who refereed the France-Ireland game.

And Wenger, too, is clueless. Not only when it comes to finding goalkeepers but, it would appear, when it comes to the rules of the game too.

Sol Campbell clearly touched the ball back to Fabianski, who picked it up. That is a free kick. An indirect one, as was given by the referee. And as was admitted by Wenger's captain, Cesc Fabregas.

Wenger also castigated the referee for allowing Porto to take the free kick quickly.

You mean like this, Arsene?

[Penk!]

Bayern Munich's injury-time winner against Fiorentina was genuinely dodgy, though:

[Lemon Yoghourt]

I couldn't believe that Bayern's winner stood. You won't see a clearer offside goal and linesman was in a great position to see it. Unforgivable.

[cheifwhat]

Re: Porto arsenal, I don't know what Sol or Fabianski were thinking reallly. Why did Sol feel the need to touch the ball? And why did the keeper pick it up? What Fabianski should have done is kick the ball out, shout at Sol and they then both deal with the throw in. As far as taking it quickly, well the clip above is what sprang to my mind too.

Arsene was all knowing and wise A few years back and the kind of bloke you wanted running the county not just your football team but he now seems a bit confused and certainly no longer Prime Minister material (mind you, given the competition actually I'm not so sure). Arse won the league in 2005 right? Thereabouts certainly, the trouble is that I dont believe that any of that team are still in the side now (except Sol I suppose). Now, any idiot knows that you don't make wholesale changes and keep winning. You introduce gradually like Man U have done throughout the red faced ones reign. I don't understand how a man as clearly intelligent as Arsene can not see that and has not done that. Arse should have been competing for titles the last five seasons instead they are 'top four'. Now while that isn't bad as such let's not fool ourselves in to thinking that this Arsenal side have anywhere near the class of that unbeaten side. As a larger point it seems to me that the last couple of seasons haven't been as closely fought, or rather, as hard to win, as previous seasons. Teams have been able to lose shedloads and play inconsistently and still be in the running for the title

[cheifwhat]

Re Bayern Fiorentina. I shall reserve judgement on how gutted I feel for Fiorentina untill the end of the second leg. They've the same scoreline as Arsenal while they played a better side and Arse are still considered favourites right? Am I the only one that thinks that this Bayern side should be the second best club side in the world right now? Roben AND Ribery? Plus a very good central midfield in Schwinestieger (I have no idea how to spell that) and Van Bommel plus forwards who thrive on good service in Gomez and Klose? Not sure about the defence but they can't be too bad now can they?

[Penk!]

Am I the only one that thinks that this Bayern side should be the second best club side in the world right now?

Yes. I think their two or three biggest names are overrated - Ribery, Klose (who's thrived on quality sevice at international level but actually has a very mediocre club record, barring one prolific season some years ago), the never-fit Robben - and outside that there isn't much that would get into a top Premiership or La Liga outfit.
The Bundesliga is a bit short on quality right now. Players like Ribery or Dzeko who look class there, I'm simply not sure about - none of them have exactly done much on the European stage. This does mean that it is a bit more even than other European leagues, so it's always pretty unpredictable, although Bayern are top right now. But that they needed a dodgy injury time goal to scrape a home win against a Fiorentina team having a pretty poor time of it in Serie A says a lot.

[The Fish]

Re: Porto's second

Clearly Wenger's assertion that it shouldn't have been a free kick because Campbell didn't mean to touch the ball is bollocks.

As to what followed, surely all anyone asks is consistency in refereeing. Nearly always these days the ref is smart enough to guard against controversy by holding up his whistle, indicating to wait until I blow before taking the free kick. Is there any directive on this ?

Fabianski was clearly trying to hold on to the ball, but the ref's body language clearly indicated he would have booked him. The frankly bizarre thing though is the haste with which the ref passed the ball along to the home side as though it was a hot potato, almost inviting them to score. That said clearly the Arse defence should have been more alert to the possibility of a quick one.

[Geezee]

to get consistency in refeering, there needs to be consistent *guidelines* and as far as i remember the only thing on this was that as long as the referee is ready, he can blow the whistle whenever he wants. again, i don't think this is the fault of the actual *referees* but rather the governing body.

i've always thought that it's really really odd that there seems to be this tacit understanding that the attackers should "wait" until the defence has time to put up a wall. surely any time an offense has happened, they can take the freekick whenever, as long as the referee is ready...otherwise you are handing the advantage back to the defence when they frankly have no right to. i know sometimes it's to the attackers advantage to let things calm down to try to bend it over or around the wall, but that's *their* choice.

Arsenal's defence fucked up, why on earth should Porto have to wait for Arsenal to get ready? i don't think there's any sport where when you commit a penalty, you give time for the offenders to build up a defence against a freekick - and certainly encroachment on the ten yards rule is one of the most annoying things i see in football. just book the whole fucking wall every time it happens, that'll get them to fucking stop.

I'd need to see it again, but I don't think the ref gave the ball like a hot potato, he seemed to give it like any normal ref would. and essentially, i think he is right to demand the ball right away from Fabianska - too often you see the defence again seeking to gain an unfair advantage by throwing the ball away, because the booking is worth it. to me, this was a perfectly refereed situation. he's not giving the "advantage" to the attackers, he's simply removing the unfair playacting of the defence after they've committed an offence. good on him, and fuck wenger.

[The Modernist]

...

You mean like this, Arsene?

Nice one, if you think a quickly taken direct free-kick outside the box where the wall is already back is remotely the same as an indirect freekick inside the box when the referee isn't even aware that the kick has been taken are remotely the same thing then you must be living in la-la land. Presumably you think it would be perfectly okay to just take a quick penalty then..what's the difference?

Look I don't want to moan about it because it resulted from terrible goalkeeping from our part so you could fairly argue we dug our own grave. But GZ and your assertion that referee was fine in the way he administered the situation is laughable. He made a catalogue of errors that resulted in a goal being given which was not a legitimate one. Here is the sequence of events (I'll ignore Wenger's complaint that it wasn't a back pass as it looked like one to me and so I have no complaints about the original award of an indirect free-kick).

1.) Hansson makes Fabianski give the ball back, and then allows the Porto player to knock it out of his hands immediately after he takes it from Fabianski. He does not make sure the Porto player takes the free-kick from where the offence took place. He was not in control.

2.) He wasn't even paying attention when Porto scored the goal!!! This is probably the most criminal of his offenses. He turns his back to the player with the ball and hasn't even raised his arm to signal an indirect free kick. The rules state that referee must raise his arm to clearly signal. In fact he was talking to Campbell with his back turned against the play when Porto took the free-kick. He then raisded his arm to signal the free-kick at about the point the ball was travelling over the goalline!


3.) After he took the ball from Lukas, he didn't even let him get back into position, the ball was in his goal before he even knew what had happened.

4) His positioning directly impeded Campbell, the nearest defender, from making any kind of challenge once play had resumed. This in itself should make the goal invalid.

I've never seen a goal like it and I doubt anyone else has either. His mismanagement of the free-kick was so complete that I doubt he'll get another top level game again.

[Geezee]

with due respect, i think only an Arsenal fan could put any blame on this goal on the ref. honestly, if this was Man Utd, i'd just be fucking embarrassed and get on with it. and there is a parallel to the freekick situation - again, the goalkeeper is not ready *at all*, nor was the ref. the ref *does not* need to be facing the play, and this is the first i'm hearing that the freekick was not taken close to where the offence took place - if this is true, fair enough, there might be some complaint. and standing in front of Campbell??? No, it is *CAMPBELL* who is standing in the way of the ref, or at least distracting him with his childish complaint! As is FAbianski - he had more than enough time to get back. and Wenger's *main* complaint was still that it was NOT a back pass!! he certainly never mentioned anything of what you are mentioning - it was just "ohh it was not a back pass, and he did not let us get back in time".

Perfectly legitimate goal, and if the ref made any mistake it was very minor (unless the kick wasn't not taken right), and i hope to god there's no further scapegoating from the authorities, spurred by some campaign from Arsenal to put the guilt elsewhere, that should puts him beyond contention for further Champions League games. It's becoming downright disgusting this indignation of referees from "lesser leagues" like Sweden or Norway, or whichever it fucking is. it's exactly the same fucking attitude which is preventing teams from these leagues from competing in the Champions League to begin with..."they are not good enough". fuck off.

let's just have Premier League officials in charge of the Champions League right? they are the only ones that could feasibly be qualified right? fucks sake.

[The Modernist]

My point is based on the rules -nothing else.
The rules (under rule 12 should you wish to look it up) state a referee indicates an indirect free kick by raising his arm and then bringing his arm down to indicate it can be taken.
He made no such gesture, indeed he was not even aware that the kick had been taken. I haven't mentioned his nationality which I regard as wholly irrelevent to this discussion.

[Geezee]

I'm not properlyonline right now due to a virus, but from memory he does hold his hand up - though not down again, which (I think but can't doublecheck) is exactly what the ref did for Henry (or at least there was some contrversy there, though no one was calling for the ref to quit after that!). I think it's quite frankly incredible to consider his "mismanagement" to be "complete". The mismanagement, here,is arsenals total lack of resPnose, and the incompetence there is "complete"...but I don't hear anyone saying Campbell or fabianski should never play again. Why are referees being held to this incredibly high standard, particulRly when they are getting no support whatsoever from the authorities? I only judge a ref on what I see in real time...were you genuinely standing there screaming "but the ref didn't put his hand down!!!!" when they scored the goal!? And what about the linesman!? It's of course just repeating the obvious, but refs really do get so much unnecessary, partisan bullshit, it's really not "fair". And quite frankly I'm amazed anyone connected to arsenal would want to do anything other than to forget the whole episode given how terrible it looks. I'm with fabregas.

[Geezee]

I'd be more sympathetic to the winners of the FA cup getting a Champions League place as of right or in a play-off with the team that finishes fourth in the Premier League. That would help to give back some of the lost status and kudos to the Cup (which it really needs).

and this to me is a great idea, particularly since the death of the cup winners cup.

[Love Vigilante]

My point is based on the rules -nothing else.
The rules (under rule 12 should you wish to look it up) state a referee indicates an indirect free kick by raising his arm and then bringing his arm down to indicate it can be taken.
He made no such gesture, indeed he was not even aware that the kick had been taken. I haven't mentioned his nationality which I regard as wholly irrelevent to this discussion.

I think in this regard the referee got everything right. As soon as he blew for the free kick, he raised his arm, thus indicating an indirect free kick. He does, admittedly, lower his arm afterwards, but only to get the ball back from the goalkeeper, who is delaying the game by holding onto the ball, so I wouldn't criticise him for that. As soon as he notices the free kick has been taken, he raises his arm again, as indeed he should - he is supposed to keep his arm raised until the next player touches the ball. As soon as the next player touches the ball, he lowers his arm.

You could argue all day about whether he ought to have allowed the free kick to be taken quickly - my own feeling is that I don't see why a referee should delay the restart to allow the offending team the best possible chance of escaping punishment for their offence, or to entertain dissent from the offending team - but I don't think there's a basis for complaint over his signalling.

[BlueMeanie]

My point is based on the rules -nothing else.
The rules (under rule 12 should you wish to look it up) state a referee indicates an indirect free kick by raising his arm and then bringing his arm down to indicate it can be taken.
He made no such gesture, indeed he was not even aware that the kick had been taken. I haven't mentioned his nationality which I regard as wholly irrelevent to this discussion.

I think in this regard the referee got everything right. As soon as he blew for the free kick, he raised his arm, thus indicating an indirect free kick. He does, admittedly, lower his arm afterwards, but only to get the ball back from the goalkeeper, who is delaying the game by holding onto the ball, so I wouldn't criticise him for that. As soon as he notices the free kick has been taken, he raises his arm again, as indeed he should - he is supposed to keep his arm raised until the next player touches the ball. As soon as the next player touches the ball, he lowers his arm.

You could argue all day about whether he ought to have allowed the free kick to be taken quickly - my own feeling is that I don't see why a referee should delay the restart to allow the offending team the best possible chance of escaping punishment for their offence, or to entertain dissent from the offending team - but I don't think there's a basis for complaint over his signalling.

The rule states that a free kick can be taken quickly if the team with advantage have possession of the ball. In this case the ball was handed over by the ref, so play should have been held up until the ref was satisfied that both teams were ready. His mistake.