World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

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joklend
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby joklend » 14 Jul 2018, 17:02

Shelvey's a MotD player. Plenty of Hollywood balls, some of which come off and make him look better than he is. Wilshere's the new Joe Cole. He gets better each time he doesn't play. I don't think we'd have done that much better with either.

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The Modernist
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 14 Jul 2018, 17:53

Oxlade -Chamberlain was probably England's biggest miss as I'm sure he would have played that attacking midfield role more effectively than Alli. Southgate's biggest mistake was made early in his England career sadly when he failed to tie down Wilf Zaha to England, how England were crying out for that kind of player in this tournament.
Overall more pluses than negatives. England had a sense of purpose and belief we haven't seen for a while. A number of players have come out with enhanced international reputations ( notably Trippier, Maguire, Henderson and Pickford but also to a lesser extent Stones and Lingard), a few (Alli, Sterling) will struggle to maintain their place in the team and didn't have good tournaments. It is clear that it is in the area of quick creative, expansive football that Southgate has made the least progress..not surprisingly given it's one of England's traditional failings. It'll be interesting to see where he takes England from here.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Lord Rother » 14 Jul 2018, 19:03

borofan wrote:
Lord Rother wrote:I wonder if Southgate, in quiet reflection on lessons he needs to learn himself (an exercise you can be sure he will carry out), will regret taking Wellbeck and leaving Wilshere and Shelvey at home.

He should do.

Why should he? Wellbeck earned his place - he often contributes when used as an impact sub. Wilshere and Shelvey? Don't be silly. Neither has ever contributed enough at international level. I know you've got a mancrush on Wilshere, but he really isn't that good.


Nonsense, total nonsense.

Before his last enforced lengthy break Wilshere had played regularly and was England’s MOTM in 6 of his last 7 matches.

He will never be as good as he could / should have been but he can pick a defence unlocking pass like few (any?) other Englishmen in the last 30 years.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Doctor Jimmy » 15 Jul 2018, 00:37

PENK wrote:Of course there are 11 million Belgians cursing their chips and mayo that Chadli couldn’t have done that on Tuesday.


You do know that Chadli was playing on the other side of the pitch on Tuesday, don't you, or are you too busy digging op tiresome cliches about Belgium?

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby PENK » 15 Jul 2018, 07:51

Doctor Jimmy wrote:
PENK wrote:Of course there are 11 million Belgians cursing their chips and mayo that Chadli couldn’t have done that on Tuesday.


You do know that Chadli was playing on the other side of the pitch on Tuesday, don't you, or are you too busy digging op tiresome cliches about Belgium?


Must make it even more frustrating then that he was able to deliver a perfect cross with his wrong foot yesterday but kept botching them on his right side when it really mattered.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Jul 2018, 08:57

I didn't watch the game yesterday - only found out the result today. That's how much the game matters, and anyone stating anything else simply doesn't understand professional football. It has nothing to do with football - it's all to do with FIFA wanting more money - that's it, pure and simple.

As re England and 'the midfield question'.........

Do you honestly think it's likely that everyone on BCB realised what we lacked was a creative midfield passer of the ball - yet Gareth Southgate and his team somehow missed that? Or is it that the reason Southgate didn't pick one was because - and here's the crux- we don't have one who is fit and/or good enough? Maybe he should have taken Wilshere - but, as I've said, he hasn't exactly knocked Southgate's door in with his performances this season and - maybe more crucially- he's just been released by Arsenal to go and resurrect his career at West Ham. That says it all really - and that's not disrespectful to West Ham. If Wilshere isn't the answer, then Shelvey most certainly isn't. We just have to face that, actually, English football hasn't produced such a player since as far back as Gascoigne or Scholes. That's scary. I think Southgate did his best by picking the three smaller, nimble guys in an attempt to mask the lack of a passer - it threw enough interference out there to get us to a World Cup semi final. That's more than commendable.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 15 Jul 2018, 09:31

Yeah it was a solution, but it reminds me of my "DIY" repairs - all selotape and glue. It's just a temporary fix, Southgate is going to have to go back to the drawing board on this.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Jul 2018, 09:51

I agree he will need to revisit, G. But if we don;t have a player of that type, we can't pick one. He has to be inventive to find an answer - but we need to understand it's not his choice. It's what he has to work with.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Toby » 15 Jul 2018, 10:37

Yep. The whole point of the midfield in the WC was producing a formation to suit the players he had, rather than trying to get them to do things they couldn't do. It clearly had limitations and against opposition of higher calibre it was exposed, but the process behind that decision was far more cerebral than previous England incarnations.

We do lack a quality midfielder able to go past or draw opposition players to them. Dele Alli and Loftus-Cheek may grow into those players - they are not even 23 yet.

I agree with DD that Wilshire is clearly not that player either. Perhaps he may be rejuvenated at West Ham, but his petulant outburst on not being selected was an indicator of an older England mindset - unfortunately he believed the hype about himself far too early in his career and felt he deserved a place in the squad based on inherent ability over fitness and form.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Rayge » 15 Jul 2018, 11:00

Toby wrote:Yep. The whole point of the midfield in the WC was producing a formation to suit the players he had, rather than trying to get them to do things they couldn't do. It clearly had limitations and against opposition of higher calibre it was exposed, but the process behind that decision was far more cerebral than previous England incarnations.

We do lack a quality midfielder able to go past or draw opposition players to them. Dele Alli and Loftus-Cheek may grow into those players - they are not even 23 yet.

Wilshire is clearly not that player either. Perhaps he may be rejuvenated at West Ham, but his petulant outburst on not being selected was an indicator of an older England mindset - unfortunately he believed the hype about himself far too early in his career and felt he deserved a place in the squad based on inherent ability over fitness and form.


So rare that we agree on anything, thought it worth noting that we do here, on every point :)
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Jul 2018, 11:47

Nicely edited, you wanker!! :lol:
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Lord Rother » 15 Jul 2018, 11:58

Toby wrote:Yep. The whole point of the midfield in the WC was producing a formation to suit the players he had, rather than trying to get them to do things they couldn't do. It clearly had limitations and against opposition of higher calibre it was exposed, but the process behind that decision was far more cerebral than previous England incarnations.

We do lack a quality midfielder able to go past or draw opposition players to them. Dele Alli and Loftus-Cheek may grow into those players - they are not even 23 yet.

I agree with DD that Wilshire is clearly not that player either. Perhaps he may be rejuvenated at West Ham, but his petulant outburst on not being selected was an indicator of an older England mindset - unfortunately he believed the hype about himself far too early in his career and felt he deserved a place in the squad based on inherent ability over fitness and form.


What petulant outburst was that?

The 2 reactions I saw were 1. Humorous and 2. Respectful.

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The Modernist
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 15 Jul 2018, 12:12

Personally I would have included him, but I can understand why Southgate felt building a midfield around a player who was so frequently injured was too higher risk and countered the long term team building he was trying to create. Wilshere's problem hasn't been one of attitude, but simply he's had too many injuries.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Rayge » 15 Jul 2018, 16:29

i've only seen it a couple of times, but my impression was that Griezeman bought that free-kick: not so much tripped, as flicked out a foot to kick the defender's calf as he threw himself after a ball he had lost control of. I'm backing Croatia now.
And what a wonderful goal!
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Rayge » 15 Jul 2018, 16:37

And a dreadful penalty award
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby PENK » 15 Jul 2018, 16:37

HOW THE FUCK IS IT A CLEAR AND OBVIOUS ERROR WHEN IT TAKES FIVE MINUTES WATCHING THE REPLAY FOR THEM TO DECIDE?!

Congratulations to VAR for ruining the World Cup.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Darkness_Fish » 15 Jul 2018, 16:41

Indeed. After being quiet for the knock out stages, VAR comes back to shit on the final.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby PENK » 15 Jul 2018, 16:48

There is no way anyone can watch that and know for sure it was a deliberate handball. The Swedish co-commentator who is a referee said he wouldn’t give a penalty. The four VAR refs and the on-field ref took five minutes to come to a decision.

That is objectively not a ”clear and obvious error”.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Pansy Puff » 15 Jul 2018, 16:54

PENK wrote:There is no way anyone can watch that and know for sure it was a deliberate handball. The Swedish co-commentator who is a referee said he wouldn’t give a penalty. The four VAR refs and the on-field ref took five minutes to come to a decision.

That is objectively not a ”clear and obvious error”.

I agree. Watching the replay I thought it was a penalty, but then I realised I was being fooled by the speed. In real time its obviously impossible for him to move his hand. Slow motion made it look deliberate.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Pansy Puff » 15 Jul 2018, 16:54

Rayge wrote:i've only seen it a couple of times, but my impression was that Griezeman bought that free-kick: not so much tripped, as flicked out a foot to kick the defender's calf as he threw himself after a ball he had lost control of. I'm backing Croatia now.
And what a wonderful goal!

It was a horrible dive, you're right.
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