World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

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The Modernist
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 12 Jul 2018, 00:23

slightbreeze wrote:
Darkness_Fish wrote:Problem with the midfield being lost is that we bolstered it by not playing anyone up front. That's an indication of our limitations.

We didn't lose the midfield because we never had one. Southgate employed Wimbledon tactics of the late 80's by just hoofing the ball up field and hoping Kane (who was awful) and Sterling would latch onto it. Realistically, if we'd have finished top of the group, we'd have been out long before tonight. However, one thing we did manage to achieve though was, the further we progressed, the lower world ranked team we played, some going considering we were ranked 12th :!:


That's too negative. England were not Wimbledon 80s - I hate that kind of negativity. But it was a problem, but we knew that all along. Henderson needed a passer along side him, but we didn't have one. It was always an obvious weak spot, still there was a lot of good combination play in the first half. The biggest mistake was sitting back on the lead after half time - I actually had a conversation at half time where I said it was the only way we could lose the game and we went on to do precisely that. So frustrating.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby trans-chigley express » 12 Jul 2018, 00:25

jimboo wrote:France 3 maybe 4 -0 in the final.

No way, Croatia will give France a game

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby trans-chigley express » 12 Jul 2018, 00:28

It was disappointing to go out with a whimper rather than a bang as I think England are capable of a much better performance than that, but it was certainly good fun while it lasted.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby trans-chigley express » 12 Jul 2018, 00:30

It’s a bit of a cliche but a mate texted me when England took the lead to joke that they’d scored too early. He was probably right in the end the way it panned out

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 12 Jul 2018, 00:38

trans-chigley express wrote:
jimboo wrote:France 3 maybe 4 -0 in the final.

No way, Croatia will give France a game


Nah he's right -France will beat them easily. They won't fall into the traps that England fell into tonight. England's biggest problem tonight were they were a young side against a very experienced one - and I include the coaches in that. France will have too much for them.
t

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby trans-chigley express » 12 Jul 2018, 01:16

The Modernist wrote:
joklend wrote:I really want to like Raheem Sterling but he offered nothing. Every attack fizzled out through him.


I've been having this on-going argument with DF about Sterling, but I thought he had a great first half. He was stretching them and causing all sorts of problems. There was a point when it was obvious that England were getting too deep and needed a greater threat on the counter. I would have liked Sterling and Rashford together which was doable when it was 1-1. Either Alli or Lingard were more than dispensable. We'd lost control of the midfield and so should have just tried to really threaten with pace on the counter.
Southgate was too conservative when it mattered, but still comes out of it with huge credit. He gave us a hell of a ride.


I thought Sterling played well. He caused trouble and kept their defence on their toes. He shouldn’t have been substituted.
Kane had a stinker though, he was either offside or playing too deep.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 12 Jul 2018, 01:17

PENK wrote:Well played Croatia.

England were better in the first half and had chances to make it safer, but Croatia were more resilient, skilful and crucially experienced. England surrendered the advantage in the second half and - as in the Colombia game - didn’t look comfortable seeing out a 1-0 win.

I’m sad to go out, of course. For an hour there it felt like they would do it. But I never believed we would beat France in the final.

Anyone who thought we would walk the game tonight is a fucking idiot and so is anyone who has a go at this team after a wonderful run.

Trippier was one of the players of the tournament.


Well done Ed. Spot on.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 12 Jul 2018, 05:57

slightbreeze wrote:
Darkness_Fish wrote:Problem with the midfield being lost is that we bolstered it by not playing anyone up front. That's an indication of our limitations.

We didn't lose the midfield because we never had one. Southgate employed Wimbledon tactics of the late 80's by just hoofing the ball up field and hoping Kane (who was awful) and Sterling would latch onto it. Realistically, if we'd have finished top of the group, we'd have been out long before tonight. However, one thing we did manage to achieve though was, the further we progressed, the lower world ranked team we played, some going considering we were ranked 12th :!:


Yeah, that fucking idiot Southgate - who the fuck game him the job! :roll: For why it's called 'The Impossible Job' read the above from Slightbreeze.
You ought to hang your head in shame.


Anyhow - onto Euro2020 everyone. And well done to Croatia for a thoroughly deserved victory.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Pansy Puff » 12 Jul 2018, 06:20

joklend wrote:I really want to like Raheem Sterling but he offered nothing. Every attack fizzled out through him.

I disagree. Sterling caused them all sorts of problems. Way more than Kane, who underperformed last night, and way more than Rashford when he came on.
England as a team were outperformed and controlled by a very strong team, but it's lazy to try and blame Sterling.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby PENK » 12 Jul 2018, 06:23

There is some truth about the long balls, though, as there were too many aimless punts surrendering possession. England sat too deep and so the attacking midfielders were no longer linking with the defenders.
It was a tactical mistake by a callow coach and team and though Southgate has admirably learned from previous mistakes, this one proved the end of the road.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby PENK » 12 Jul 2018, 07:11

Sour grapes, part two:

After the quarter final against Russia, two members of the Croatian camp released a video with a provocative ”Glory to Ukraine” message. One of those, the coach Ognjen Vukojevic, was sacked by the Croatian FA. The other, Domagoj Vida, was on the pitch last night. :|
Copehead wrote:I have met Gruff Rhys - although he claimed he wasn't and that he couldn't speak Welsh, as I spoke to him in Welsh, but it was him lying bastard.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 12 Jul 2018, 07:28

trans-chigley express wrote:It was disappointing to go out with a whimper rather than a bang as I think England are capable of a much better performance than that, but it was certainly good fun while it lasted.


Which is very much how I felt after the QF for Sweden. I was getting quite frustrated with the whole "coming home" and "bringing back national pride" thing, and was certainly less than enamoured with general commentary following the QF, but this morning I wake up feeling really quite disappointed that it's not an England-France final. I'd still have fancied and preferred France to win, but there is still much to admire in that England team. Still, Croatia deserved to win - their doggedness is quite incredible - and I still expect them to give France a run for their money. It's not entirely dissimilar to the Euro16 final where France were also favourites - but this time I expect them to churn out a win.

Here's hoping that following a reversal of Brexit and rejoining the European community, England also celebrate with an appearance in the final of the "European" Euro 2020.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 12 Jul 2018, 07:33

trans-chigley express wrote:Well done Croatia. Well deserved. England’s worst performance of the tournament. 1 shot on target in 120 minutes says it all


Is that true? So three shots on target and three goals in 210 minutes!? quite remarkable if so (both in a positive and negative sense).
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Toby » 12 Jul 2018, 07:38

Croatia did brilliantly to pull themselves back into the game. At 15 minutes or so I thought England might get a couple more and that would be enough.

Sadly Kane was anonymous and as noted already, Henderson just didn't have anyone to link with because Alli and Lingard were pressing too high.

The reality was that England didn't really have a plan B whereas Croatia could switch effortlessly between several formations because of their supremely talented midfield maestros. When you have a world-class player who can drift between a CDM, CM and a CAM it can make a significant difference. There was a moment in extra time when Modric barged Kane off the ball and it summed up the game.

England can take heart from the formation of a proper team in the crucible of a memorable tournament. Players like Tripper, Pickford Maguire and Stones can go home with reputations enhanced. They will go into the next tournament with their tails up, the young players on the periphery will be clamouring to get in (like Sessegnon) and we have a bright future managed by a coach and staff with a clear vision.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 12 Jul 2018, 07:39

One thing that grates with me (and I think it's been discussed here before) is the frequent commentary that match for 3rd/4th is pointless - and that there were immediate question-marks following Belgium's loss over whether their star players would be motivated for it. It's a chance to win a medal for your country in the sport you represent - who on earth needs motivation for that? for teams like Croatia (98), Turkey (02) and Sweden (94), their bronze medals are some of the biggest sporting achievements in their countries (obviously different for Croatia now) - and puts a very different complexion on their tournament. For England, Saturday is already a huge challenge and one I really hope they look forward to - Belgium again should be favourites but given the extraordinary sour grapes on their side I really do hope England stuff them.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 12 Jul 2018, 07:46

The 3rd/4th place play off is a complete and utter waste of time. It shouldn't be played. And if I was the manager of players likely to be playing in it, i'd be doing everything in my power to get them not to play in it.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby PENK » 12 Jul 2018, 07:47

Toby wrote:the young players on the periphery will be clamouring to get in (like Sessegnon).


There do seem to be a handful of genuinely exciting youngsters on the cusp of a breakthrough: Sessegnon, Sancho, Lookman and Foden are the most obvious. But they’re all wingers and attackers. This team, like those before it, still desperately needs a midfield ball-player, someone to run the show. Is there anyone like that coming through?
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 12 Jul 2018, 08:06

How I see it... you do one or the other, not fall inbetween two stools. You either press from high up the pitch and play a high line to compress the area you need to press - or, like France, you concede territory and sit ten outfield players behind the ball and make the other team play through you. We got caught doing a bit of one and the other - the worst possible combination of dropping deeper and deeper, but still trying to press the ball. It's no wonder they got tired - they were trying to 'police' an area twice as deep as it should have been.

The reason? A bit of inexperience certainly and also that crucial lack of an 'out'.... either a target man we could get forward and support quickly, or (more crucially) a midfield player you could give the ball to and say "Take this for ten seconds please" and give the defence a chance to push up and compress the space.

We all knew we didn't have that player - so we ended up playing the long ball forward and hoping it stuck - and last night it didn't. So it was coming back at us before we'd had the chance to get the back three/five 15/20 yards up the pitch. Which meant Croatia had lots of room when they got the ball - and you give people like Modric and Rakatic space to play, they'll get to you eventually.

What we should have done was swallow the pill and try to play the way France did in the second half against Belgium - get everyone back behind the ball (including Kane and Sterling/Rashford) and make Croatia play through ten outfield players. That was our best chance - but it didn't feel like we were prepared to accept that challenge. It's just not something English teams are very comfortable doing. But we need to get used to it - or find a midfield player who can do the kind of thing that Modric has done all his career - hold onto the ball and buy the team time.

The manager and players will learn - I have no doubts about that. They can be rightly proud of their showing here - especially in light of where we were when Southgate took over officially (which was only November 2016, let's not forget). We've come a long way - but there's a long way to go still. At least we've got a manager who looks like he has a clue, who the players trust and believe in and who the fans have taken to as well. And there is a good nucleus of young players already in place, with more to come.

I'm very optimistic.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby caramba » 12 Jul 2018, 08:41

Diamond Dog wrote:The 3rd/4th place play off is a complete and utter waste of time. It shouldn't be played. And if I was the manager of players likely to be playing in it, i'd be doing everything in my power to get them not to play in it.


People have been saying as such for years. Can't understand why they still bother as it's a game hardly anyone wants to play in or watch.

Aside from giving Harry K the chance to improve his chances of winning the Golden Boot, this year's non-event's only distinction lies in its being a repeat of WC 2018''s most turgid and pointless group game

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Rayge » 12 Jul 2018, 08:51

caramba wrote:Aside from giving Harry K the chance to improve his chances of winning the Golden Boot

The only way he doesn't get at least a share of it is for Mbappe or Griezman to score four, or three plus an 'assist' in the final.
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