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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 12 Jul 2018, 21:41
by Darkness_Fish
jimboo wrote:Pansy Puff wrote:jimboo wrote:Yeah , but scaring the back four wasn't what was required.Actually beating someone ,creating space and scoring would have been better.
But why single him out? Rashford, Lingard, Ali, Kane, all invisible. At least Sterling put a shift in.
I am not blaming him. If so many went missing then why all the headlines about lions and heroes?
Headlines are bollocks, always have been. I'm not sure they went missing. I just don't think they're good enough, when up against quality opposition, when Croatia figured out how to dominate, England couldn't get back into it. I don't think Sterling's a great player, but he's the best we've got in that area. Picking Rashford instead is just picking someone with a worse touch. We're a limited team, who gave us all something to shout about due to the luck of the draw. It was fun while it lasted.
Should've taken Peter Crouch, if you ask me. He might be shit, but with 10 minutes to go, bring on the awkward bloke on stilts, see what happens. Would've been more use than taking Welbeck. [/almost-serious comment]
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 12 Jul 2018, 21:42
by Diamond Dog
jimboo wrote:Diamond Dog wrote:jimboo wrote:Yeah , but scaring the back four wasn't what was required.Actually beating someone ,creating space and scoring would have been better. Everyone is looking forward to the Euro's now.I wonder how they will fare against the world champions , losing finalist and the team that beat them in their group?
Who knows? Does that detract from what was achieved here then?
What has been achieved though , a lot of finally backing the team and actually getting behind the manager for once by the press aside , It doesn't fall on Sterling that England didn't take the opportunity to be in the final. It's two shots on target , it's surrendering midfield , long balls and this strange notion that set pieces are the best plan when it comes to winning matches.Last gasp against Tunisia , penalties against Columbia who , it should be said , when they played football had England on the ropes , Columbia in this thread were criticised because they lacked a finisher and a passer who could add the finishing touch needed (both lacking in the current England team , yet there are so many improvements/positives)Sweden were paraded as a well drilled awkward side , they lacked drive ,invention or anything resembling a goal threat.England played well in the first half against Croatia with the set piece theory proving it's worth to the advocates of the new method. They then reverted to type in the second half with the ball going longer and the gap between midfield and attack becoming an unbreachable chasm. Sterling , who was causing all the trouble for Croatia was replaced.
Taking the games on an individual basis , nothing suggests an immediate Euro winning performance. The reserve team game against Belgium suggests there is not the depth on the bench. Englands golden generation failed and I thought the last world cup should have been used to ease in a new generation. This team did the best they could , given the successes of the England youth teams the future may be brighter. To win the world cup or the Euros though means less hyperbole and didn't they do well considering chatter, turned into killing the opposition , being ruthless and finding out how to get the ball to players who will take chances rather than just worry defenders.Croatia upped the ante in a way that England never looked capable of.
England got themselves to the semi final , the easy draw , if you indeed think it was, is still a massive achievement , but how can you go from it's coming home and we are going to the final and, follow it with , well done lads , we wouldn't have beaten France anyway, coupled with the second half of hoofball and being pegged back deeper and deeper praying for a corner or a free kick outside the box?
I'm not aware of anyone suggesting we were playing amazing football, that we were favourites to win the World Cup on merit, that we were unlucky to go out, that we're now certs to win the Euro2020 competition blah blah blah.
I think a few people on this thread today have given some very sound analysis around why we lost and why Croatia deserved to win as well.
I'm not sure who you're referring to in your posts, but I do get the distinct impression you're trying to build strawmen to justify and/or disguise your obvious delight at England going out.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 13 Jul 2018, 00:36
by trans-chigley express
Geezee wrote:trans-chigley express wrote:Well done Croatia. Well deserved. England’s worst performance of the tournament. 1 shot on target in 120 minutes says it all
Is that true? So three shots on target and three goals in 210 minutes!? quite remarkable if so (both in a positive and negative sense).
I’m not entirely sure it’s true, it’s just what I heard the commentator say. I’m thought there was at at least 2 on target including the goal. Still not good.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 13 Jul 2018, 03:05
by mentalist (slight return)
caramba wrote:mentalist (slight return) wrote:caramba wrote:Think the last time there was a near upset of the magnitude of last night at a WC was Portugal vs North Korea at Goodison Park in 1966
Bollocks. Japan are decent side with some quality players who have excellent technical skills.
Could you show me where I suggested that they somehow weren't?
I just pointed out the similarity of the size and nature of the narrowly averted upset.
It's just how I read your post. Clashes in understanding and intent in bulletin board posts have been happening since the day they were invented!
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 13 Jul 2018, 09:59
by Goat Boy
Darkness_Fish wrote:jimboo wrote:Pansy Puff wrote:But why single him out? Rashford, Lingard, Ali, Kane, all invisible. At least Sterling put a shift in.
I am not blaming him. If so many went missing then why all the headlines about lions and heroes?
Headlines are bollocks, always have been. I'm not sure they went missing. I just don't think they're good enough, when up against quality opposition, when Croatia figured out how to dominate, England couldn't get back into it. I don't think Sterling's a great player, but he's the best we've got in that area. Picking Rashford instead is just picking someone with a worse touch. We're a limited team, who gave us all something to shout about due to the luck of the draw. It was fun while it lasted.
Should've taken Peter Crouch, if you ask me. He might be shit, but with 10 minutes to go, bring on the awkward bloke on stilts, see what happens. Would've been more use than taking Welbeck. [/almost-serious comment]
Headlines are bollocks of course. From reading comments here and talking to my English mates they are all delighted (and shocked) at what the team has done but their feet are placed squarely on the ground. The world cup naturally attracts dickheads who know nothing about the game. For some of them they probably think England are going to win the Euros and possibly the next world cup. They have probably purchased and distributed several copies of Three Lions to friends and family. Frankly you wouldn't want to sit next to them on a bus. I call this the Tyldesley effect.
For sensible people I think they are hopeful and just happy that England are competitive again. When they look back on this summer in years to come they will remember the magnificent weather and watching England actually doing something at a world cup. They will have happy memories and that's a beautiful thing.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 13 Jul 2018, 10:50
by Geezee
One thing I find a bit curious - one thing that apparently motivated Croatia were press clippings of English media reports which effectively dismissed them as a threat and/or showed unwarranted confidence that England would beat them. I seem to remember this from some other game as well several years ago (I don't recall which game/tournament - might have been Iceland). I can't help but wonder - yes the English press goes crazy and is known to be jingoistic etc - but are other countries' news papers really that different? Will Croatia's management show the team press clippings from L'Equipe (which in fairness is usually quite good but still write some pretty dismissive things about French opposition, even if it very often is tongue in cheek) to motivate them? Apparently one of the things the Croatians picked up on was the BBC pointing to the fact that Croatia had played two extra times/penalties as playing in England's favour. To me, that's not particularly controversial - it was definitely a potential factor, and I don't think it's either poor journalism or wishful thinking to be pointing it out, irrespective of the fact that actually Croatia ended up looking far less tired that their opponents. But apparently it really grated with the Croats. Yes the English media and certain sections of the public are often not particularly gracious, knowledgeable or respectful of the opponents, but I do think there is a tendency to overplay that vis-a-vis the media/public in other countries - and I'm assuming it's just that English papers are more widely read/understood that they have this motivating impact on the opposition. That said, there were undoubtedly many, dckheads or not, who did seemed to be getting ahead of themselves a little bit before the game.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 13 Jul 2018, 11:43
by Diamond Dog
I didn't notice the press being particularly OTT - but there again, I don't read the papers that would be likely to.
The Croatian claim that they were motivated by the BCC reporting factually that they had played two penalty shoot outs probably says more about them than the BBC.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 13 Jul 2018, 11:47
by Goat Boy
Teams use whatever they can to motivate them.
If I was the manager I'd have just played 'em Three Lions
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 13 Jul 2018, 19:54
by KeithPratt
The Croats I think could draw on something elemental in their psyche that motivated them. They wanted it more as the game went on. Whether that was a resilience or something about their identity it's hard to articulate, but it was a "thing" I felt England didn't have in the tank. For most of their best players it's also their last chance at this.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 13 Jul 2018, 20:23
by Goat Boy
Toby wrote:The Croats I think could draw on something elemental in their psyche that motivated them. They wanted it more as the game went on. Whether that was a resilience or something about their identity it's hard to articulate, but it was a "thing" I felt England didn't have in the tank. For most of their best players it's also their last chance at this.
They perceive themselves as underdogs. Real or not the “arrogance “ of the English media worked in their favour
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 14 Jul 2018, 11:25
by The Modernist
The perception of English arrogance is as old as the empire. It's something other countries will draw upon to motivate themselves, irrespective of how factual this perception of the English media actually is. As it is the coverage was relatively measured and leavened by gallows humour. England did have a potentially easier route to the finals, as indeed did Croatia. There's nothing triumphalist in stating that. Would Croatia have rather played Brazil or France or Belgium? Of course not.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 14 Jul 2018, 11:28
by The Modernist
Geezee wrote:That said, there were undoubtedly many, dckheads or not, who did seemed to be getting ahead of themselves a little bit before the game.
Getting excited is what people do with football. It's not like conducting a cold, objective scientific experiment where you are required to be detached.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 14 Jul 2018, 11:49
by andymacandy
Toby wrote:The Croats I think could draw on something elemental in their psyche that motivated them. They wanted it more as the game went on. Whether that was a resilience or something about their identity it's hard to articulate, but it was a "thing" I felt England didn't have in the tank. For most of their best players it's also their last chance at this.
I think thats the crucial factor-their "golden generation" is fading out, and they wont get a better chance than this. They summoned something up in the last quarter to win it.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 14 Jul 2018, 14:04
by Lord Rother
I wonder if Southgate, in quiet reflection on lessons he needs to learn himself (an exercise you can be sure he will carry out), will regret taking Wellbeck and leaving Wilshere and Shelvey at home.
He should do.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 14 Jul 2018, 14:33
by The Modernist
Lord Rother wrote:I wonder if Southgate, in quiet reflection on lessons he needs to learn himself (an exercise you can be sure he will carry out), will regret taking Wellbeck and leaving Wilshere and Shelvey at home.
He should do.
I do think he got the balance of the squad slightly wrong, he didn't need so many defenders.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 14 Jul 2018, 15:05
by Penk!
The Modernist wrote:Lord Rother wrote:I wonder if Southgate, in quiet reflection on lessons he needs to learn himself (an exercise you can be sure he will carry out), will regret taking Wellbeck and leaving Wilshere and Shelvey at home.
He should do.
I do think he got the balance of the squad slightly wrong, he didn't need so many defenders.
On this evidence he certainly didn’t need Danny Rose!
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 14 Jul 2018, 15:10
by Penk!
Of course there are 11 million Belgians cursing their chips and mayo that Chadli couldn’t have done that on Tuesday.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 14 Jul 2018, 16:34
by Penk!
Whatever the result, good to see England really causing Belgium some bother... despite Belgium’s ”anti-football” in the second half.
Lingard has been superb since coming on. Loftus-Cheek has impressed too; I hope he isn’t going to have his development stalled by sitting on the bench all year at Chelsea now.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 14 Jul 2018, 16:40
by joklend
It wasn't really my intention to single out Raheem Sterling for criticism, I only mentioned him because there was a discussion on his subsitution.
The frustrating thing against Croatia was England fell apart due to the same old problems -- whenever we have to deal with teams that press the defence and attack become disjointed, leading to the ball by-passing any midfield creativity and becoming aimless. Exacerbated by Alli going missing. Kane was forced deeper and deeper to facilitate his own service, so by the time the overlap came there often were few good options to pick out.
But, I don't want to be too critical.
Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya
Posted: 14 Jul 2018, 16:57
by borofan
Lord Rother wrote:I wonder if Southgate, in quiet reflection on lessons he needs to learn himself (an exercise you can be sure he will carry out), will regret taking Wellbeck and leaving Wilshere and Shelvey at home.
He should do.
Why should he? Wellbeck earned his place - he often contributes when used as an impact sub. Wilshere and Shelvey? Don't be silly. Neither has ever contributed enough at international level. I know you've got a mancrush on Wilshere, but he really isn't that good.