World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

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Dr Markus
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Dr Markus » 28 Mar 2018, 14:37

Kelly Cates finally asked the question I've wanted to ask pundits/ex footballers about Joe hart. On the debate last night, she asked Murphy and bellamy why pundits/ex footballers still support or want Hart in the squad compared to most of the public who don't. They're only reason seemed to be experience and guidance to the younger keepers. Bit of a cop out if you ask me, I understand where they're coming from but I still think he shouldn't go.

....and yes some think the debate is shite, but I don't mind it.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby KeithPratt » 28 Mar 2018, 15:09

In fairness both Butland and Pickford have never been at a tournament and they have about 10 caps between them. So taking Hart does make sense to a certain extent.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 28 Mar 2018, 17:05

Toby wrote:In fairness both Butland and Pickford have never been at a tournament and they have about 10 caps between them. So taking Hart does make sense to a certain extent.


To a pretty limited extent I'd say. What exactly can his experience bring to the squad? Is it so he can say to Pickford and Butland "Try not to fuck up like I did at the last two tournaments?".
I mean I get the importance of having senior players in the dressing room, I really do, but they still have to be there on merit. You can't lead if your ability is being questioned all the time. It's not ideal to be taking keepers who are so inexperienced, just as it's not ideal to be taking inexperienced centre-halfs which England will also be doing, but it's where they are and they have no real choice. It's just a shame that when Hart was number one, he only had the likes of Robert Green or Fraser Forster challenging him and so there was no one to really take over for a while.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Penk! » 28 Mar 2018, 17:13

If you want a keeper with tournament experience to advise the likes of Pickford and Butland then give David James or Seaman a coaching role. Hart has clearly gone downhill over the last few years and would only be getting picked because he’s mates with people.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby KeithPratt » 28 Mar 2018, 18:07

Is it worth having 3 keepers with little or no experience or 2 with none and 1 with some.

I'd say the latter.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 28 Mar 2018, 20:16

I'm not sure what he's expected to contribute. His "experience" hasn't been much help to West Ham this season.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Diamond Dog » 29 Mar 2018, 06:27

Hart would be a completely wasted pick, in my view. Indeed, he may even be a 'negative' pick in that what he 'brings to the squad' (whatever that is) is outweighed by the negatives of having a player who hasn't shone at international level for many years, has screwed up royally in at least two tournaments, and who pretty much defines the era we are trying to get away from.

I think he'd be a disastrous choice. Stick with the youngsters and embrace the new era.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby KeithPratt » 29 Mar 2018, 13:05

Well, I guess Southgate sees and hears something we don't. Not having a view on the England dressing room doesn't help.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Rayge » 29 Mar 2018, 14:01

Third choice goalie is a bit of a wasted spot anyway. OK you're screwed if you lose the two goalies to injury or (more) disastrous form (than
usual :-)), but then again keepers aren't as often injured as outfield players, because they don't do as much running, twisting and tackling.

And talking of injuries, is it not statistically likely that two or three at least of the 'certainties' will pick up an injury in the final 10 games or so of the season that will either rule them out or shear them of match fitness. And if they try to protect themselves by playing within themselves (which Dog forbid considering they include more than a third of the Spurs first team we're going to need for the beaten cup finalists/league runners-up double), their form will tail off. It's a pickle. Or possibly a pancake.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 29 Mar 2018, 14:08

Hart's career is quite inexplicable. As a young keeper it seemed inevitable he'd be one of the greats - I've rarely seen someone arrive so fully formed as a keeper with so much gravitas in the penalty area. It doesn't all seem to be about confidence either, which is what can often kill a keeper's career.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Dr Markus » 29 Mar 2018, 14:17

Never thought any of that from day one about Hart. He's always been overrated. I'd rather stick with Liverpool's current two keepers than get him in.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Penk! » 29 Mar 2018, 14:26

For a few years there Hart was a very very good goalkeeper. Not at the same level as Buffon, Casillas or Neuer, but certainly one of the best in the Premier League and a worthy number one for England. He made the odd error but all keepers do and in England those things are just scrutinised a lot more than elsewhere.

I think he's really tailed off after his error against Wales at the Euros and being subsequently dropped - for something completely unrelated, his poor passing - at his club. He gets stick for the gurning routine against Pirlo at Euro 2012 but I don't think you can call that a proper cock-up, just something that didn't work. It's not like he pulled a Rob Green and let the ball through his legs or something.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Rayge » 29 Mar 2018, 15:00

Geezee wrote:Hart's career is quite inexplicable. As a young keeper it seemed inevitable he'd be one of the greats - I've rarely seen someone arrive so fully formed as a keeper with so much gravitas in the penalty area.

I agree totally - I actually saw him play when he was a teenager (my friend hawkmoth was at the time a season-ticket holder at Gay Meadow for his pains), and he was as physically imposing as Butland and commanded his area brilliantly.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Geezee » 29 Mar 2018, 15:02

His passing used to be one of his strengths as well - he was a hell of a distributor of the ball in his early years.
I remember beginning to wonder about him after Zlatan's goal feast against him - as good as that last goal was, a top goalkeeper would never have come out as indecisively as he did. It feels as if his career peaked in that incredible season he had when City won their title, and he seemed to slowly but surely deconstruct after that, as if he had nothing else to achieve or he lost motivation. I remember seeing a few interviews with him the season after that where he started to bristle defensively.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby KeithPratt » 29 Mar 2018, 16:26

It was the Doritos and Shampoo ads I think. Never before has such hubris followed.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Dr Markus » 29 Mar 2018, 17:22

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/43110905

There will be no British referee at the World Cup this summer for the first time since 1938.


Without any proof or evidence, I think there's a good chance this is down to british refs allowing more physicality in football (which is part and parcel of the british game thank fuck) and FIFA don't like it. I'll fully admit, there's no standout british ref, but I still think this has affected their decision.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 29 Mar 2018, 18:54

Rayge wrote:Third choice goalie is a bit of a wasted spot anyway. OK you're screwed if you lose the two goalies to injury or (more) disastrous form (than
usual :-)), but then again keepers aren't as often injured as outfield players, because they don't do as much running, twisting and tackling.
.


It is a wasted spot, but managers have no choice. The FIFA rules state that you have to have three goalkeepers in your squad. I think it would be better if they were allowed to take only two and an exemption created for goalkeepers whereby you are allowed to draft in a third goalkeeper during the tournament in the unlikely event both your goalkeepers get injured.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby The Modernist » 29 Mar 2018, 19:00

PENK wrote:For a few years there Hart was a very very good goalkeeper. Not at the same level as Buffon, Casillas or Neuer, but certainly one of the best in the Premier League and a worthy number one for England. He made the odd error but all keepers do and in England those things are just scrutinised a lot more than elsewhere.

I think he's really tailed off after his error against Wales at the Euros and being subsequently dropped - for something completely unrelated, his poor passing - at his club. He gets stick for the gurning routine against Pirlo at Euro 2012 but I don't think you can call that a proper cock-up, just something that didn't work. It's not like he pulled a Rob Green and let the ball through his legs or something.


His form had been declining before the Wales game though. It was already known he was weak on long shots because of the goals he'd conceded in the premier league and there was already a debate on whether he was good enough to be England's number one . I agree he was very good in the earlier part of his career though. No idea what caused the decline, but concentration seems to be a problem.

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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby Rayge » 29 Mar 2018, 19:34

The Modernist wrote:
Rayge wrote:Third choice goalie is a bit of a wasted spot anyway. OK you're screwed if you lose the two goalies to injury or (more) disastrous form (than
usual :-)), but then again keepers aren't as often injured as outfield players, because they don't do as much running, twisting and tackling.
.


It is a wasted spot, but managers have no choice. The FIFA rules state that you have to have three goalkeepers in your squad. I think it would be better if they were allowed to take only two and an exemption created for goalkeepers whereby you are allowed to draft in a third goalkeeper during the tournament in the unlikely event both your goalkeepers get injured.


Ah. I did not know that. Thank you.
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Re: World Cup 2018 - Rossiya

Postby KeithPratt » 29 Mar 2018, 19:50

It is a shame because keepers really hit their prime by about 30 (Casillas and De Gea are notable exceptions) and he should be at the top of his game. However his form looks like it's in permanent decline.


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