Football or Rugby

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Well...?

Football
13
62%
Rugby
6
29%
Footy
2
10%
 
Total votes: 21

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Nikki Gradual
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Nikki Gradual » 15 Mar 2017, 07:49

Toby wrote:Jonah Lomu, generally seen as the finest Rugby player of all time


"Generally seen" only by people who know absolutely nothing about rugby. Jonah Lomu was a phenomenon, but not even the best winger let alone the best player. If you state it simply, and ignore his weakness on the turn and poor tackling, his one job was to score tries and he amassed 37 in 60 international tests while having the advantage of playing for the best team in the world. That gives him 0.587 tries per cap, which means he isn't even in the top 5 Kiwis. Julian Savea is currently on 45 tries from 51 tests and is a far better all-round winger than Lomu. And we are just talking wingers here, not full backs, fly halves or back rows (the positions most likely to offer up the greatest player of all time, though rugby positions are so incomparable that it is a ridiculous concept in the first place). Just to emphasise how silly your point is, Shane Williams, all 5ft 7in of him, scored 60 tries in 91 tests (0.659) while playing for a far less dominant top tier team. Yes, size and strength are factors in rugby, but they are not everything.
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Nikki Gradual
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Nikki Gradual » 15 Mar 2017, 07:59

Brutal Kangaroo wrote:Rugby League fans are just nice


:D I follow you on Twitter you know. :D
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Diamond Dog
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Mar 2017, 08:40

Nikki Gradual wrote:
Toby wrote:Jonah Lomu, generally seen as the finest Rugby player of all time


"Generally seen" only by people who know absolutely nothing about rugby. Jonah Lomu was a phenomenon, but not even the best winger let alone the best player. If you state it simply, and ignore his weakness on the turn and poor tackling, his one job was to score tries and he amassed 37 in 60 international tests while having the advantage of playing for the best team in the world. That gives him 0.587 tries per cap, which means he isn't even in the top 5 Kiwis. Julian Savea is currently on 45 tries from 51 tests and is a far better all-round winger than Lomu. And we are just talking wingers here, not full backs, fly halves or back rows (the positions most likely to offer up the greatest player of all time, though rugby positions are so incomparable that it is a ridiculous concept in the first place). Just to emphasise how silly your point is, Shane Williams, all 5ft 7in of him, scored 60 tries in 91 tests (0.659) while playing for a far less dominant top tier team. Yes, size and strength are factors in rugby, but they are not everything.


Thank you James - you explained that perfectly.

It's a bit like American Football - size and strength is important but the best wide recivers (for instance) are rarely the quickest (generally considered the greatest of all time, Jerry Rice, was like a tractor compared to others around him throughout his career), neither Tom Brady nor Joe Montana (both generally considered the greatest quartebacks of all time) were in any way the greatest physical specimens at the position and one of the greatest offensive lines (Denver 97 & 98) were midgets compared to others. I could find similar comparisons throughout the positions.

Where size and strength and speed is an advantage is in getting drafted... that's pretty much undeniable (Montana was drafted 82nd and Brady 199th in their years.... )... but, once you are picked, it's down to how you are as a player that counts.

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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby PENK » 15 Mar 2017, 09:15

Diamond Dog wrote:Where size and strength and speed is an advantage is in getting drafted... but, once you are picked, it's down to how you are as a player that counts.


That's true in (association) football too.

A while ago I went to watch my girlfriend's nephew playing for his U-14 team against Hammarby, the youth team of a Swedish Premier league side. The boys on both teams were very talented, but what was really noticeable was how the Hammarby players, those affiliated to the professional side, dwarfed the opposition: all eleven on the team could have passed for adults.
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Diamond Dog
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Mar 2017, 09:33

PENK wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Where size and strength and speed is an advantage is in getting drafted... but, once you are picked, it's down to how you are as a player that counts.


That's true in (association) football too.

A while ago I went to watch my girlfriend's nephew playing for his U-14 team against Hammarby, the youth team of a Swedish Premier league side. The boys on both teams were very talented, but what was really noticeable was how the Hammarby players, those affiliated to the professional side, dwarfed the opposition: all eleven on the team could have passed for adults.


It's one of the major changes in Arsenal's 'drafting/scouting' policy over the past ten years too...... A very good friend of a friend told me that one of the first things Wenger did was change the emphasis from skill to athleticism in their scouting...(sadly he didn't also make 'staying injury free' as part of that equation, seemingly) which could well be one of the reasons Arsenal really don't get the quality of youngsters that you'd assume a club with their 'footballling' ethos should have.

In the end, athleticism will always push you to the front of the queue (even more so in this country, I'd suggest, where we place such great emphasis on ability to run as opposed to ability to control the ball) but, once you're there, skill and savvy will generally win out eventually.

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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Toby » 15 Mar 2017, 09:45

Nikki Gradual wrote:
"Generally seen" only by people who know absolutely nothing about rugby. Jonah Lomu was a phenomenon, but not even the best winger let alone the best player. If you state it simply, and ignore his weakness on the turn and poor tackling, his one job was to score tries and he amassed 37 in 60 international tests while having the advantage of playing for the best team in the world. That gives him 0.587 tries per cap, which means he isn't even in the top 5 Kiwis. Julian Savea is currently on 45 tries from 51 tests and is a far better all-round winger than Lomu. And we are just talking wingers here, not full backs, fly halves or back rows (the positions most likely to offer up the greatest player of all time, though rugby positions are so incomparable that it is a ridiculous concept in the first place). Just to emphasise how silly your point is, Shane Williams, all 5ft 7in of him, scored 60 tries in 91 tests (0.659) while playing for a far less dominant top tier team. Yes, size and strength are factors in rugby, but they are not everything.


Fair enough guv'nor.

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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Goat Boy » 15 Mar 2017, 10:12

Toby wrote:The ability to run around the pitch for 90 minutes has always been there. That's why Ray Parlour had a semblance of an international career, because he could run around non-stop.

I don't doubt that fitness is becoming supra-important - I have a friend who has worked at some of the top clubs as a conditioning coach, and it is only recently that footballers are starting to reach the levels that Rugby players have.

But my point still remains - as someone who was "small" as a child (I shot up from 5' 4" to 6' in 2 years between the ages of 16 - 18), football remains a sport where "classical" fitness attributes aren't as necessary to success as other sports. See Cricket as well (the greatest batsmen of all time were all under 5' 8") for that. That's why it appeals to me. Someone like the late Jonah Lomu, generally seen as the finest Rugby player of all time, was a physical beast, but that to me is just genetics shining (albeit in a tragically brief way) for him at the right time.



It’s a fair point.

Part of footballs appeal to me was that it was more egalitarian than other sports. You could have the 5ft 1 player who was godlike but also the lanky midfielder who smoked 40 a day (hello Socrates). Of course the smaller footballer with a lower centre of balance sometimes has a physical advantage too depending on their position i.e. Maradona.

It has changed significantly of course and athleticism plays an increasing role now. Watching Chelsea v Man Utd the other night I was struck by how powerful looking Antonio Valencia was and he was playing full back ffs. He looked like a rugby league player.
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby PresMuffley » 16 Mar 2017, 05:17

As an American who has probably never watched a proper Rugby match the choice is easy: soccer / football

I don't know what a proper Rugby match would consist of, but I find the term 'scrum' very off-putting.

American football is shit. I keep up with the college game only out of habit.

Would rather watch singles tennis than anything. Teammates suck.
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby The Red Heifer » 16 Mar 2017, 07:00

Nikki Gradual wrote:
Brutal Kangaroo wrote:Rugby League fans are just nice


:D I follow you on Twitter you know. :D



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northernsky
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby northernsky » 16 Mar 2017, 08:38

PENK wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:Where size and strength and speed is an advantage is in getting drafted... but, once you are picked, it's down to how you are as a player that counts.


That's true in (association) football too.

A while ago I went to watch my girlfriend's nephew playing for his U-14 team against Hammarby, the youth team of a Swedish Premier league side. The boys on both teams were very talented, but what was really noticeable was how the Hammarby players, those affiliated to the professional side, dwarfed the opposition: all eleven on the team could have passed for adults.


Some years ago, Offside presented statistics on players who've represented the Swedish national team and those born in the first half of the year were remarkably overrepresented. I can't find the reference now, but here's a list of 15 year olds selected for the annual elite training camp in Halmstad from 2001-2011, sorted by birth in each quarter of the year:

boys:
1st quarter: 42%
2nd quarter : 30%
3rd quarter: 18%
4th quarter: 10%

girls:
1st quarter: 35%
2nd quarter: 30%
3rd quarter: 21%
4th quarter: 14%

And, Swedish-born players currently in the top Swedish division:
1st quarter: 85
2nd quarter: 74
3rd quarter: 63
4th quarter: 36

I doubt Sweden is alone in this, by the way.
My eldest is born at the end of November and small for his age. Also, he's of an age when many of his peers have hit puberty. If I say so myself, he's one of the 2-3 most technically gifted in his team. He only ever gets to play fullback or wing.

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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Diamond Dog » 16 Mar 2017, 09:06

There is an astonishing stat that something like 90% of all American Football, Basketball, Baseball & Ice Hockey players drafted in the first round are born in January (that's not it exactly, but there was a programme re the phenomenom that really did make you go "Wow"). It's a huge advantage in a draft system.

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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Shaun » 08 Jan 2018, 12:39

Rugby league
Don't fight the hypothetical

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The Modernist
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby The Modernist » 08 Jan 2018, 17:58

Toby wrote:Football wins because it doesn't rely on strength. Messi, Xavi or Iniesta would be flattened on a rugby pitch, but in football they are the Emperors.


There's been any number of small scrum halves, even now they tend to be fairly diminutive.

Football for me obviously, but I do really enjoy a good game of rugby too (and obviously here I'm talking about union), but I only really follow the internationals.

They're the only two team sports that interest me..you can keep the rest.

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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Dr Markus » 08 Jan 2018, 18:04

Football, because no matter how rugby pundits try to make it sound tactical as fuck, it's really not.
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby The Modernist » 08 Jan 2018, 18:05

The Great Defector wrote:Football, because no matter how rugby pundits try to make it sound tactical as fuck, it's really not.


It is if you understand it. It's a more technical game than football in that regard.
There's more luck involved in football which is why you are much more likely to get a shock result in football than rugby.
This doesn't make rugby a better spectator sport for me, the fact that football is often a bit random and chaotic is one of the things I love about it.

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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Dr Markus » 08 Jan 2018, 18:08

The Modernist wrote:
The Great Defector wrote:Football, because no matter how rugby pundits try to make it sound tactical as fuck, it's really not.


It is if you understand it. It's a more technical game than football in that regard.


Meh.
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby The Modernist » 08 Jan 2018, 18:10

Stick to theatre Markus. ;)

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Dr Markus
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Dr Markus » 08 Jan 2018, 18:42

Double meh.
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Re: Football or Rugby

Postby Copehead » 26 May 2018, 17:14

Just seen this.
I don't think I have sat down to watch a game of Soccer I've planned to watch in many years now and I doubt I ever will again. The last game I did that for was probably the Spain Holland WC final and that was because I was in Spain and was going out for the evening and needed somewhere to sit and eat. That was a shit game and most big games tend to be shit because too much rides on them these days.
I don't even watch MOTD these days unless there has been a remarkable game that day but it must be over a year since I've watched it.
Soccer just bores me now; although I bet if you gave me a tape of the highlights of Liverpool's season this year I would love it, they sound like a brilliant team to watch; a piece of flowing football ending in a goal is still a thing of beauty much as it is in Rugby.

I make no great claims for Rugby, it was what I was brought up with and played all my life so it is ingrained, I can watch a bad game of rugby because I know what's going on and I can find something interesting in most games. I tend to watch live rugby as much as rugby on the TV, I'll generally watch my local team play and record a couple of games and then watch those over the weekend, often on fast forward if they start to drag.

Soccer has simplicity on its side Rugby has complexity, it depends what you want, they both have moments of sublime skill, Rugby has more intense head to head battles as well, literally in the front row.

I find Rugby League a little unsatisfying and it is Union stripped of the complexity that makes Union so compelling for me, I can see why some people find that a good thing but for me the engineering of space on a Union field is far more compelling.

I can also understand how some people find some Rugby fans off putting, I have been lucky being brought up in Wales where it is the everyman game and playing in the East Midlands which is pretty similar in that regard. But I did get a taste of the bray twat side of it at University.


I was looking for a Cycling thread to talk about Chris Froome's ride for the ages in the Giro D'Italia yesterday but there doesn't seem to be one.
What a ride, gutted for Yates though a spectacular blow up from the young man, hopefully he will be back and be the next in the line of recent British champions in GT cycling.
Last edited by Copehead on 26 May 2018, 17:38, edited 1 time in total.
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