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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 07 Jun 2015, 13:13
by The Modernist
I think there needs to be an in-depth report on this. The only way we can get a full picture is by asking black players to tell their story. We need to find out why they're not applying to be coaches or why some are not developing careers in the game post playing. Only then can we draw conclusions which enable something to be done (The Rooney Act is one proposal, but there may be other ways).

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 07 Jun 2015, 13:29
by Diamond Dog
Precisely.

It was Skope who stated the reason non white managers aren't getting jobs is "not racism" but due to (lack of) "ability and experience".

Read the thread from the start - it's not difficult.

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 07 Jun 2015, 14:11
by Butch Manly
The Modernist wrote:He hasn't said anything racist -fact. You should know better than to try and tar someone like that.


He called me fat. :(

And I haven't even accused him of being a cross-burning sheet-wearer. :x

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 07 Jun 2015, 14:32
by never/ever
Diamond Dog wrote:
You appear to be completely side-stepping the business of the 'white boys club' and suggesting the lack of new managers is the issue. My concern is where were the non white coaches then, where are they now...and why is that lack of representation so apparent?


Can you prove that the choices made by teams not to employ black managers was purely based on racist motives? I don't deny the racial issues at stake at all, I also offered the rather opaque way the same coaches appear every time getting the top jobs in the EPL- without using the racial stereotyping as a possible excuse.

As Moddie says, there surely are grounds to investigate the lack of black (and female) officials in the sport and whether racist/gender-issues are at the heart of this. If there's data suggesting there are plenty of black candidates around for top positions in boardrooms and management, then the question indeed becomes why.

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 07 Jun 2015, 14:40
by Diamond Dog
never/ever wrote:As Moddie says, there surely are grounds to investigate the lack of black (and female) officials in the sport and whether racist/gender-issues are at the heart of this. If there's data suggesting there are plenty of black candidates around for top positions in boardrooms and management, then the question indeed becomes why.



If there are plenty of candidates, the question of why is indeed pertinent.

If there aren't, many would say the question becomes even more pertinent.

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 07 Jun 2015, 15:07
by Butch Manly
never/ever wrote:Can you prove that the choices made by teams not to employ black managers was purely based on racist motives?


I think you're misunderstanding the nature of racism. We are not talking about conscious decisions to exclude black people here. But when black people are almost constantly overlooked in favour of "better" or "more qualified" candidates, it is most certainly a question of racism, however subtle or unconscious it may appear.

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 07 Jun 2015, 15:23
by The Modernist
K wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
K wrote:
You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.


"taking the racist line of the meritocracy". What does that even mean?
He hasn't said anything racist -fact. You should know better than to try and tar someone like that.
Personally I think he would have been better withdrawing from this one or at least making more effort to qualify what he was saying, but that doesn't mean he deserves to get called what you called him.


It's the line used where people deny prejudice eg through the number of women or BAME people in managerial and leadership roles by stating "If they were good enough they'd get the role. We appointed the strongest candidate on the day."
Everything, the marketing, the interview panel etc feeds into this.


Opposition to that kind of positive discrimination doesn't necessarily have to come from a position of being a racist.

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 07 Jun 2015, 15:32
by Diamond Dog
Not necessarily, no.

But when the only act in sport to combat endemic racism in position of coaching power (the Rooney Act) showed exactly what happens when positive discrimination is introduced to overcome that structural bias, it seems somewhat perverse to ignore it and blindly assuage the reasons non white manager's don't get the jobs is because of their lack of "ability and experience" don't you think?

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 07 Jun 2015, 15:39
by The Modernist
I think you've won the argument DD, my objection was calling Skope a racist.

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 07 Jun 2015, 15:53
by Diamond Dog
Well thank you G - you're such a clever chap ;)

I don't like the racist tag either but........if people continue to support arguments that are used by racists and blindly ignore fact, then it probably leads to it.

If it looks like a duck...............

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 08 Jun 2015, 00:04
by never/ever
Diamond Dog wrote:Not necessarily, no.

But when the only act in sport to combat endemic racism in position of coaching power (the Rooney Act) showed exactly what happens when positive discrimination is introduced to overcome that structural bias, it seems somewhat perverse to ignore it and blindly assuage the reasons non white manager's don't get the jobs is because of their lack of "ability and experience" don't you think?


It's the old vicious circle- you won't get the experience because you never been put into a position to gain that experience. And yeah, for blacks and women alike, it seems their road is way harder than that for the average white Joe. Stories like the one leading this thread would certainly suggest an endemic problem in the FA.

Which is why it would be good to have it mapped out how many black people would be in a position to be considered for a position of power within an EPL-team and if there was any form of proving that they were the victims of conscious or subtle racism.

I was hoping Paul Ince, for instance, would have been more successful in the EPL. It would have broken more barriers for sure. Would he be considered for a position of power in an EPL-team right now, on the back of his last few tenancies as a manager?

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 08 Jun 2015, 09:24
by Rayge
Rayge wrote:
K wrote:I imagine that skope uses that argument to excuse his racism.


He's no more a racist than a carnivore.
It seems to me that he's thinking (mistakingly) that Pete's saying that there is a general hostility toward black people in football and that racists at the club or in the support are keeping the numbers of black managers down, while I think Pete's point is that there is a cultural structure of racism (overt 50 years and less ago, largely disavowed now on a personal level, but lingering in the structures and traditions of the game) that inhibits black players from attempting to pursue a career in management and those in a position to appoint managers from taking on or considering black candidates. In that reading, they're both right.
Can I have a lollipop?
:D


And after four pages more of flatulence, insult and drunken behaviour, everyone seems to be compromising round my way of thinking.

And I still haven't got a lollipop. :evil:

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 08 Jun 2015, 13:11
by Diamond Dog
You haven't earnt one.

Simply because I have stated there is still both overt and covert racism in football - the overt is certainly is much smaller than previously, but it's still there. And the covert racism is clearly still in place, if only taking the appallingly low % of non white managers.

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 30 Aug 2015, 22:27
by Rayge
Diamond Dog wrote:You haven't earnt one.

Simply because I have stated there is still both overt and covert racism in football - the overt is certainly is much smaller than previously, but it's still there. And the covert racism is clearly still in place, if only taking the appallingly low % of non white managers.


Well, I've got a freezerful anyway, but in fact I did point out that skope was seeing 'racism' purely in terms of personal hostile overt action and was unaware of the concepts of passive institutional and cultural racism, which is why he was reacting so strongly before it all got very silly.
The fact that I've been denied the oral gratification on basis of a disputable technicality is, well, a disappointment to me





:|

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 31 Aug 2015, 00:01
by Butch Manly
It was a good thread, though.

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 31 Aug 2015, 10:57
by Butch Manly
K wrote:
Solaskope wrote:It was a good thread, though.


Until I waded in.


Ruined it.

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 31 Aug 2015, 10:58
by jimboo
Rayge wrote:



The fact that I've been denied the oral gratification on basis of a disputable technicality is, well, a disappointment to me






:|



Alas , we all have at various times Rayge.

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 10 May 2017, 14:09
by Diamond Dog

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 10 May 2017, 20:41
by Darkness_Fish
Interesting stuff, especially the Brian Deane article in The Guardian. I can see why someone might not take a punt on Dwight Yorke, because he had such a reputation as being basically a piss-artist and playboy (although, of course if he was white, there was a good chance he'd have had a better press about that). But Brian Deane was one of those players who always came across as a proper pro, kept his head down, worked hard and made the most of his natural talent. It sounds like he tried to enter the game at a suitable level, and was basically slapped down, which I don't believe would happen to a white ex-player of his calibre.

It does look like not many black or ethnic minority players are applying for those coaching badges though, (Uefa Pro-Licence: 6.5% in 2011), is that due to institutionalised racism? It doesn't sound like there's much encouragement for a young black manager.

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Posted: 11 May 2017, 13:44
by Diamond Dog
As I said earlier on.... if the guys don't feel they have a fair chance of even being interviewed (let alone chosen) they won't apply. The Rooney Rule in the US absolutely proved that point.