FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Fitba' crazy, fitba' mad. But mostly mad. And angry
User avatar
Pansy Puff
Posts: 8696
Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 21:10
Location: Under the watchful eye of the Clive police

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Pansy Puff » 07 Jun 2015, 11:33

The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.
The Happy Mondays were disqualified from a special edition of the BBC’s Bargain Hunt after Bez broke the show’s rules by artificially inflating prices, handing victory to Pulp.

User avatar
never/ever
Posts: 23024
Joined: 27 Jun 2008, 14:21
Location: Journeying through a burning brain

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 11:43

K wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.


Where does he specifically have a racist opinion?

Mind you, I don't count any answers of you surmising that he has one based upon him not answering a question because he doesn't know....
Ever notice that anyone going slower than you is an idiot, but anyone going faster is a maniac?."

George Carlin

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 66697
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 12:14

'skope wrote:i simply don't buy into the argument that owners who spend fortunes in transfer fees and salaries on black players, wouldn't be willing to do the same on black managers due to "overt and covert racism".



Okay we get that. It's all you've said on the subject.

If, as you say, it isn't racism which drives non white candidates to be six times less likely to get a job in the English pro-game (which is a statistical fact, that even you cannot challenge - the evidence has already been provided in the thread) then exactly what is driving this phenomena?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

User avatar
Pansy Puff
Posts: 8696
Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 21:10
Location: Under the watchful eye of the Clive police

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Pansy Puff » 07 Jun 2015, 12:15

never/ever wrote:
K wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.


Where does he specifically have a racist opinion?

Mind you, I don't count any answers of you surmising that he has one based upon him not answering a question because he doesn't know....


You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.
The Happy Mondays were disqualified from a special edition of the BBC’s Bargain Hunt after Bez broke the show’s rules by artificially inflating prices, handing victory to Pulp.

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 66697
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 12:20

never/ever wrote:
K wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.


Where does he specifically have a racist opinion?

Mind you, I don't count any answers of you surmising that he has one based upon him not answering a question because he doesn't know....



It's in the way he has tried to introduce qualifiers into the debate - the implied suggestion that there may be some clue in the potential lack of non white candidates getting badges etc. Rather than ask why that may be, it's left as a potential explanation.

Of course, if you really want to find out the reason for there being less candidates for coaching badges (if it is so, no one has produced any evidence to support that) is almost certainly the exact same reason as for the lack of non white managers in the English game.

One isn't a reason for the other - they are both a part of the exact same failing.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 12289
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby The Modernist » 07 Jun 2015, 12:29

K wrote:
You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.


"taking the racist line of the meritocracy". What does that even mean?
He hasn't said anything racist -fact. You should know better than to try and tar someone like that.
Personally I think he would have been better withdrawing from this one or at least making more effort to qualify what he was saying, but that doesn't mean he deserves to get called what you called him.

User avatar
never/ever
Posts: 23024
Joined: 27 Jun 2008, 14:21
Location: Journeying through a burning brain

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 12:34

K wrote:
never/ever wrote:
K wrote:
It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.


Where does he specifically have a racist opinion?

Mind you, I don't count any answers of you surmising that he has one based upon him not answering a question because he doesn't know....


You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.



Would you like to be raked over the coals in a discussion simply because you have been acting like a cunt on occasion too?

You made a massive jump early in the discussion yourself accusing skope to be racist whereas he has never even come close to make a direct statement. The only thing I read is that he doesn't believe in the racist card being played in regards to the lack of black managers in football but he cannot explain why.

The question he rightfully asked- how many black people were following or have followed the FA Football managers' course and are elegible to be hired in a manager's position, was never answered. I am wondering how many black people are actually members of football clubs member boards. Is it a management culture's question, just like the number of women in management of leadership positions in general sports or business?

Do you know?
Ever notice that anyone going slower than you is an idiot, but anyone going faster is a maniac?."

George Carlin

User avatar
never/ever
Posts: 23024
Joined: 27 Jun 2008, 14:21
Location: Journeying through a burning brain

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 12:44

Diamond Dog wrote:

It's in the way he has tried to introduce qualifiers into the debate - the implied suggestion that there may be some clue in the potential lack of non white candidates getting badges etc. Rather than ask why that may be, it's left as a potential explanation.

Of course, if you really want to find out the reason for there being less candidates for coaching badges (if it is so, no one has produced any evidence to support that) is almost certainly the exact same reason as for the lack of non white managers in the English game.

One isn't a reason for the other - they are both a part of the exact same failing.



The lack of new managers in the Premier League comes as no surprise- it's an Old Boys Club- every season I see the merry-go-round of has-beens, often sacked and complete failures of coaches dancing from one EPL-club to another without any fresh faces to be seen within coees.
Ever notice that anyone going slower than you is an idiot, but anyone going faster is a maniac?."

George Carlin

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 66697
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 12:48

So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

User avatar
never/ever
Posts: 23024
Joined: 27 Jun 2008, 14:21
Location: Journeying through a burning brain

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 12:55

Diamond Dog wrote:So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?


I'd love to see a new generation of managers taking the place of yer Pardews, Lamberts, Allardyces, Bruces and so forth. Who are they and where are they though?
Ever notice that anyone going slower than you is an idiot, but anyone going faster is a maniac?."

George Carlin

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 66697
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 13:06

never/ever wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?


I'd love to see a new generation of managers taking the place of yer Pardews, Lamberts, Allardyces, Bruces and so forth. Who are they and where are they though?


Kind of the point, isn't it?

You appear to be completely side-stepping the business of the 'white boys club' and suggesting the lack of new managers is the issue. My concern is where were the non white coaches then, where are they now...and why is that lack of representation so apparent?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 12289
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby The Modernist » 07 Jun 2015, 13:08

never/ever wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?


I'd love to see a new generation of managers taking the place of yer Pardews, Lamberts, Allardyces, Bruces and so forth. Who are they and where are they though?


I think a new generation of managers, who are more analytical and apply all sorts of micro management techniques are emerging - yer Dykes, Warburtons, Howes etc. They're not black though so it's a debate for another thread.

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 12289
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby The Modernist » 07 Jun 2015, 13:13

I think there needs to be an in-depth report on this. The only way we can get a full picture is by asking black players to tell their story. We need to find out why they're not applying to be coaches or why some are not developing careers in the game post playing. Only then can we draw conclusions which enable something to be done (The Rooney Act is one proposal, but there may be other ways).

User avatar
Pansy Puff
Posts: 8696
Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 21:10
Location: Under the watchful eye of the Clive police

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Pansy Puff » 07 Jun 2015, 13:16

The Modernist wrote:
K wrote:
You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.


"taking the racist line of the meritocracy". What does that even mean?
He hasn't said anything racist -fact. You should know better than to try and tar someone like that.
Personally I think he would have been better withdrawing from this one or at least making more effort to qualify what he was saying, but that doesn't mean he deserves to get called what you called him.


It's the line used where people deny prejudice eg through the number of women or BAME people in managerial and leadership roles by stating "If they were good enough they'd get the role. We appointed the strongest candidate on the day."
Everything, the marketing, the interview panel etc feeds into this.
The Happy Mondays were disqualified from a special edition of the BBC’s Bargain Hunt after Bez broke the show’s rules by artificially inflating prices, handing victory to Pulp.

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 66697
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 13:29

Precisely.

It was Skope who stated the reason non white managers aren't getting jobs is "not racism" but due to (lack of) "ability and experience".

Read the thread from the start - it's not difficult.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

User avatar
Butch Manly
Utter Cad
Posts: 51166
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Butch Manly » 07 Jun 2015, 14:11

The Modernist wrote:He hasn't said anything racist -fact. You should know better than to try and tar someone like that.


He called me fat. :(

And I haven't even accused him of being a cross-burning sheet-wearer. :x
Goatboy to Belle:

"I suggest you retreat to the safety of your Facebook bubble. Griff has a post he needs you to like."

User avatar
never/ever
Posts: 23024
Joined: 27 Jun 2008, 14:21
Location: Journeying through a burning brain

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 14:32

Diamond Dog wrote:
You appear to be completely side-stepping the business of the 'white boys club' and suggesting the lack of new managers is the issue. My concern is where were the non white coaches then, where are they now...and why is that lack of representation so apparent?


Can you prove that the choices made by teams not to employ black managers was purely based on racist motives? I don't deny the racial issues at stake at all, I also offered the rather opaque way the same coaches appear every time getting the top jobs in the EPL- without using the racial stereotyping as a possible excuse.

As Moddie says, there surely are grounds to investigate the lack of black (and female) officials in the sport and whether racist/gender-issues are at the heart of this. If there's data suggesting there are plenty of black candidates around for top positions in boardrooms and management, then the question indeed becomes why.
Ever notice that anyone going slower than you is an idiot, but anyone going faster is a maniac?."

George Carlin

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 66697
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 14:40

never/ever wrote:As Moddie says, there surely are grounds to investigate the lack of black (and female) officials in the sport and whether racist/gender-issues are at the heart of this. If there's data suggesting there are plenty of black candidates around for top positions in boardrooms and management, then the question indeed becomes why.



If there are plenty of candidates, the question of why is indeed pertinent.

If there aren't, many would say the question becomes even more pertinent.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

User avatar
Butch Manly
Utter Cad
Posts: 51166
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:22
Location: 16 Beasley Street

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Butch Manly » 07 Jun 2015, 15:07

never/ever wrote:Can you prove that the choices made by teams not to employ black managers was purely based on racist motives?


I think you're misunderstanding the nature of racism. We are not talking about conscious decisions to exclude black people here. But when black people are almost constantly overlooked in favour of "better" or "more qualified" candidates, it is most certainly a question of racism, however subtle or unconscious it may appear.
Goatboy to Belle:

"I suggest you retreat to the safety of your Facebook bubble. Griff has a post he needs you to like."

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 12289
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby The Modernist » 07 Jun 2015, 15:23

K wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
K wrote:
You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.


"taking the racist line of the meritocracy". What does that even mean?
He hasn't said anything racist -fact. You should know better than to try and tar someone like that.
Personally I think he would have been better withdrawing from this one or at least making more effort to qualify what he was saying, but that doesn't mean he deserves to get called what you called him.


It's the line used where people deny prejudice eg through the number of women or BAME people in managerial and leadership roles by stating "If they were good enough they'd get the role. We appointed the strongest candidate on the day."
Everything, the marketing, the interview panel etc feeds into this.


Opposition to that kind of positive discrimination doesn't necessarily have to come from a position of being a racist.