FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Pansy Puff » 07 Jun 2015, 11:33

The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 11:43

K wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.


Where does he specifically have a racist opinion?

Mind you, I don't count any answers of you surmising that he has one based upon him not answering a question because he doesn't know....
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 12:14

'skope wrote:i simply don't buy into the argument that owners who spend fortunes in transfer fees and salaries on black players, wouldn't be willing to do the same on black managers due to "overt and covert racism".



Okay we get that. It's all you've said on the subject.

If, as you say, it isn't racism which drives non white candidates to be six times less likely to get a job in the English pro-game (which is a statistical fact, that even you cannot challenge - the evidence has already been provided in the thread) then exactly what is driving this phenomena?
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Pansy Puff » 07 Jun 2015, 12:15

never/ever wrote:
K wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.


Where does he specifically have a racist opinion?

Mind you, I don't count any answers of you surmising that he has one based upon him not answering a question because he doesn't know....


You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.
“He’s got the memory of an elephant ... and the trophy cabinet of one too.”

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 12:20

never/ever wrote:
K wrote:
The Modernist wrote:Skope having a different opinion doesn't make him a racist. Get a grip people.


It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.


Where does he specifically have a racist opinion?

Mind you, I don't count any answers of you surmising that he has one based upon him not answering a question because he doesn't know....



It's in the way he has tried to introduce qualifiers into the debate - the implied suggestion that there may be some clue in the potential lack of non white candidates getting badges etc. Rather than ask why that may be, it's left as a potential explanation.

Of course, if you really want to find out the reason for there being less candidates for coaching badges (if it is so, no one has produced any evidence to support that) is almost certainly the exact same reason as for the lack of non white managers in the English game.

One isn't a reason for the other - they are both a part of the exact same failing.
Mason Cooley wrote:Worried about being a dull fellow? You might develop your talent for being irritating.


"You were caught fucking another woman’s husband in a field while you were married, you camel-faced, racist troglodyte".

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby The Modernist » 07 Jun 2015, 12:29

K wrote:
You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.


"taking the racist line of the meritocracy". What does that even mean?
He hasn't said anything racist -fact. You should know better than to try and tar someone like that.
Personally I think he would have been better withdrawing from this one or at least making more effort to qualify what he was saying, but that doesn't mean he deserves to get called what you called him.

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 12:34

K wrote:
never/ever wrote:
K wrote:
It's his having a racist opinion that makes him racist.


Where does he specifically have a racist opinion?

Mind you, I don't count any answers of you surmising that he has one based upon him not answering a question because he doesn't know....


You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.



Would you like to be raked over the coals in a discussion simply because you have been acting like a cunt on occasion too?

You made a massive jump early in the discussion yourself accusing skope to be racist whereas he has never even come close to make a direct statement. The only thing I read is that he doesn't believe in the racist card being played in regards to the lack of black managers in football but he cannot explain why.

The question he rightfully asked- how many black people were following or have followed the FA Football managers' course and are elegible to be hired in a manager's position, was never answered. I am wondering how many black people are actually members of football clubs member boards. Is it a management culture's question, just like the number of women in management of leadership positions in general sports or business?

Do you know?
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 12:44

Diamond Dog wrote:

It's in the way he has tried to introduce qualifiers into the debate - the implied suggestion that there may be some clue in the potential lack of non white candidates getting badges etc. Rather than ask why that may be, it's left as a potential explanation.

Of course, if you really want to find out the reason for there being less candidates for coaching badges (if it is so, no one has produced any evidence to support that) is almost certainly the exact same reason as for the lack of non white managers in the English game.

One isn't a reason for the other - they are both a part of the exact same failing.



The lack of new managers in the Premier League comes as no surprise- it's an Old Boys Club- every season I see the merry-go-round of has-beens, often sacked and complete failures of coaches dancing from one EPL-club to another without any fresh faces to be seen within coees.
Ever notice that anyone going slower than you is an idiot, but anyone going faster is a maniac?."

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 12:48

So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 12:55

Diamond Dog wrote:So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?


I'd love to see a new generation of managers taking the place of yer Pardews, Lamberts, Allardyces, Bruces and so forth. Who are they and where are they though?
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 13:06

never/ever wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?


I'd love to see a new generation of managers taking the place of yer Pardews, Lamberts, Allardyces, Bruces and so forth. Who are they and where are they though?


Kind of the point, isn't it?

You appear to be completely side-stepping the business of the 'white boys club' and suggesting the lack of new managers is the issue. My concern is where were the non white coaches then, where are they now...and why is that lack of representation so apparent?
Mason Cooley wrote:Worried about being a dull fellow? You might develop your talent for being irritating.


"You were caught fucking another woman’s husband in a field while you were married, you camel-faced, racist troglodyte".

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby The Modernist » 07 Jun 2015, 13:08

never/ever wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:So it was an old boys white network before and we should just accept that that's how it's going to stay?


I'd love to see a new generation of managers taking the place of yer Pardews, Lamberts, Allardyces, Bruces and so forth. Who are they and where are they though?


I think a new generation of managers, who are more analytical and apply all sorts of micro management techniques are emerging - yer Dykes, Warburtons, Howes etc. They're not black though so it's a debate for another thread.

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby The Modernist » 07 Jun 2015, 13:13

I think there needs to be an in-depth report on this. The only way we can get a full picture is by asking black players to tell their story. We need to find out why they're not applying to be coaches or why some are not developing careers in the game post playing. Only then can we draw conclusions which enable something to be done (The Rooney Act is one proposal, but there may be other ways).

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Pansy Puff » 07 Jun 2015, 13:16

The Modernist wrote:
K wrote:
You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.


"taking the racist line of the meritocracy". What does that even mean?
He hasn't said anything racist -fact. You should know better than to try and tar someone like that.
Personally I think he would have been better withdrawing from this one or at least making more effort to qualify what he was saying, but that doesn't mean he deserves to get called what you called him.


It's the line used where people deny prejudice eg through the number of women or BAME people in managerial and leadership roles by stating "If they were good enough they'd get the role. We appointed the strongest candidate on the day."
Everything, the marketing, the interview panel etc feeds into this.
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 13:29

Precisely.

It was Skope who stated the reason non white managers aren't getting jobs is "not racism" but due to (lack of) "ability and experience".

Read the thread from the start - it's not difficult.
Mason Cooley wrote:Worried about being a dull fellow? You might develop your talent for being irritating.


"You were caught fucking another woman’s husband in a field while you were married, you camel-faced, racist troglodyte".

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Vic Snazell-Sprey » 07 Jun 2015, 14:11

The Modernist wrote:He hasn't said anything racist -fact. You should know better than to try and tar someone like that.


He called me fat. :(

And I haven't even accused him of being a cross-burning sheet-wearer. :x
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby never/ever » 07 Jun 2015, 14:32

Diamond Dog wrote:
You appear to be completely side-stepping the business of the 'white boys club' and suggesting the lack of new managers is the issue. My concern is where were the non white coaches then, where are they now...and why is that lack of representation so apparent?


Can you prove that the choices made by teams not to employ black managers was purely based on racist motives? I don't deny the racial issues at stake at all, I also offered the rather opaque way the same coaches appear every time getting the top jobs in the EPL- without using the racial stereotyping as a possible excuse.

As Moddie says, there surely are grounds to investigate the lack of black (and female) officials in the sport and whether racist/gender-issues are at the heart of this. If there's data suggesting there are plenty of black candidates around for top positions in boardrooms and management, then the question indeed becomes why.
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Diamond Dog » 07 Jun 2015, 14:40

never/ever wrote:As Moddie says, there surely are grounds to investigate the lack of black (and female) officials in the sport and whether racist/gender-issues are at the heart of this. If there's data suggesting there are plenty of black candidates around for top positions in boardrooms and management, then the question indeed becomes why.



If there are plenty of candidates, the question of why is indeed pertinent.

If there aren't, many would say the question becomes even more pertinent.
Mason Cooley wrote:Worried about being a dull fellow? You might develop your talent for being irritating.


"You were caught fucking another woman’s husband in a field while you were married, you camel-faced, racist troglodyte".

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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby Vic Snazell-Sprey » 07 Jun 2015, 15:07

never/ever wrote:Can you prove that the choices made by teams not to employ black managers was purely based on racist motives?


I think you're misunderstanding the nature of racism. We are not talking about conscious decisions to exclude black people here. But when black people are almost constantly overlooked in favour of "better" or "more qualified" candidates, it is most certainly a question of racism, however subtle or unconscious it may appear.
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Re: FA told Graham Taylor not to pick too many black players for England

Postby The Modernist » 07 Jun 2015, 15:23

K wrote:
The Modernist wrote:
K wrote:
You mean I can't just attack skope because he's a cunt?

Perhaps he's not overt, but he's taking the racist line of the meritocracy.


"taking the racist line of the meritocracy". What does that even mean?
He hasn't said anything racist -fact. You should know better than to try and tar someone like that.
Personally I think he would have been better withdrawing from this one or at least making more effort to qualify what he was saying, but that doesn't mean he deserves to get called what you called him.


It's the line used where people deny prejudice eg through the number of women or BAME people in managerial and leadership roles by stating "If they were good enough they'd get the role. We appointed the strongest candidate on the day."
Everything, the marketing, the interview panel etc feeds into this.


Opposition to that kind of positive discrimination doesn't necessarily have to come from a position of being a racist.