BCB England football team thread

Fitba' crazy, fitba' mad. But mostly mad. And angry
User avatar
Rayge
Posts: 13684
Joined: 14 Aug 2013, 11:37
Location: deepest Devon
Contact:

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Rayge » 16 Nov 2017, 10:26

Goat Boy wrote:I think it's absurd that players who have played a handful of games at club level are now being talked of as first choice international players. They haven't even produced one good season amongst them.


That's the joy of it. International and club football are different beasts.
Club football at the top level is more rarefied and of a greater quality than international football at the same level, and while there are doubtless many reasons for this, as well as perspectives on why it is happening, at least part of it is because clubs have their players on full-time contacts, can adopt systems, drill players within them, and develop or buy in players who suit that system and put the management structures in place. Of course, international managers can't have that time, and are limited in the players they can choose from, so that continuity is lost. And there are only about 10 competiive matches a year for most of them to work within.
Recognition of that is what has prompted the FA to create the academy system and St George's Park, and to try to establish continuity, and a framework into which developing players can slot, effectively creating (they hope) something like a club atmosphere. It seems to be paying off at youth and under-20 level.
In timeless moments we live forever

You can't play a tune on an absolute

Negative Capability...when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, Mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact & reason”

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 32791
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Goat Boy » 16 Nov 2017, 10:44

Youth and Under 20 mean little I think. If a handful of these players become full internationalists you will be doing well.

I can see the value in giving Maguire a chance for example over a Smalling. I get that. His partnership with Gomez could be promising too but I wouldn’t chuck Cahill out either just because he was part of a crap team in 2014.

I don’t see the point, at this stage, of picking players like Solanke or Abrahams over Vardy for example. Maybe if they impress during the rest of the season they will deserve a call up.

Obviously the likes of Joe Hart should not get anywhere near the team now. Sturridge is a crock. Sterling has disappointed for England but should he be chucked out with the bathwater too?
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

User avatar
PENK
Midnight to Six Man
Posts: 35067
Joined: 07 Aug 2004, 20:12
Location: Stockholm

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby PENK » 16 Nov 2017, 10:54

Goat Boy wrote:Youth and Under 20 mean little I think. If a handful of these players become full internationalists you will be doing well.


This is the crux of it. By all means drop the underperformers if there is a proper replacement.

But picking Dominic Solanke who has played 85 minutes of football in the Premier League is preposterous.

If youth tournaments meant anything then the favourites for next summer's tournament would be Mexico and Nigeria. Switzerland, Serbia and Ghana have all also won youth international World Cups in the last decade. Are they likely to be up there?
GoogaMooga wrote:
Minnie Cheddars wrote:Baron got into a fight with some Satan’s Slaves over some culinary issue

Awful thing when that happens. I had a similar experience at a Tom Jones concert.

User avatar
Dr Markus
Posts: 17670
Joined: 07 Jan 2012, 18:16

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Dr Markus » 16 Nov 2017, 11:26

The Modernist wrote: I had a long argument with Markus about English fans prematurely hyping young talent to absurd levels before they've done anything - turns out he was right.
.



Sorry, what? say that I again, I didn't quite catch that. ;)
Drama Queenie wrote:You are a chauvinist of the quaintest kind. About as threatening as Jack Duckworth, you are a harmless relic of that cherished era when things were 'different'. Now get back to drawing a moustache on that page three model

User avatar
Rayge
Posts: 13684
Joined: 14 Aug 2013, 11:37
Location: deepest Devon
Contact:

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Rayge » 16 Nov 2017, 19:34

PENK wrote:Picking Dominic Solanke who has played 85 minutes of football in the Premier League is preposterous.

If youth tournaments meant anything then the favourites for next summer's tournament would be Mexico and Nigeria. Switzerland, Serbia and Ghana have all also won youth international World Cups in the last decade. Are they likely to be up there?


My point is not that they won the youth world cups so the players must be good, but the fact that England won them both with teams playing in remarkably similar ways and showing more technique, flair and freedom of movement than I'm used to, shows that there is some kind of coherent long-term plan in place. Playing the England way is what they have grown up with, and they could fit in to the senior squad a little more smoothly because of it. Personally, I think shaking it all up would be a good idea, but it's all speculative anyway as the tournament is a long way off, we don't know who is going to be injured, hit form, lose form and so on and while I don't care much about England's results, nor, currently, about who wins it, I'd like to see some good football, preferably with the Spurs players playing like they do for their club, which means having better players around them.
So anyway I'm out of here now, there's a NLD to fret about instead :)
In timeless moments we live forever

You can't play a tune on an absolute

Negative Capability...when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, Mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact & reason”

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 12865
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby The Modernist » 16 Nov 2017, 22:05

Lord Rother wrote:The likes of Vardy, Henderson, Cahill and Smalling are never going to feature in a team capable of doing well in a World Cup, so there is no point taking them to Russia when we have players like Maguire, Gomez, Loftus Cheek, Abrahams / Solanke (whichever, should be one of the two) who just might be good enough in tournaments for the next 10 years.
.


And what happens if they're not? All those guys you are now writing off were once considered great prospects. How do you know these guys are going to be any better than the previous generation. All this seems like lot of wishful thinking to me. It's not based on anything.

User avatar
Lord Rother
Posts: 6215
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 11:54
Location: breaking the legs of the bastard that got me framed

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Lord Rother » 16 Nov 2017, 22:32

Only one way to find out.

What the is the point of sending a squad you KNOW are not capable of achieving anything in tournament football of the highest level, and in fact are quite likely to heap yet more frustration and embarrassment on us?

Seriously, what is the point?

They might not prove to be any better than the current lot but if the likes of Solanke, Loftus Cheek, Abrahams and Gomez had been born 15+ years earlier they may very well have already proved to be in the same territory as Owen and Rooney and other teenage sensations. The fact that the game has “evolved” to the state we are in today where our very best young players can’t get games with their own clubs should not be allowed to completely stifle their chance of progressing to the National Team, overtaking their under-achieving elders.

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 12865
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby The Modernist » 17 Nov 2017, 10:41

It depends on what you mean by "achieve" in major tournaments. I think in any given world cup there are only ever 3 or 4 teams with a good chance of winning it. For most world cups England haven't been one of those select band, and they have that in common with the majority of nations competing in the tournament.
I think we should just try and do as well as possible, which broadly means picking the strongest squad available at that time. Where there are deficencies in the squad, it is up to the manager to try and find creative solutions to overcome them (that's a challenge that's currently facing Southgate in central midfield for example). If it comes to choosing between Vardy, a guy who was the highest English goalscorer in the 2015-16 season, and Solanke, a guy yet to score a single premiership goal, then it is self-evident that Vardy is the better choice currently. Anything else flies in the face of rationality.
I am not against blooding young players, or even of prioritising future tournaments over more immediate ones by building for the future. But it needs to be carefully done, rational and based on where the players are currently, rather than wishful thinking, which frankly is all this is.

User avatar
Toby
Arsehole all Erect
Posts: 23584
Joined: 28 Jul 2003, 23:13
Contact:

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Toby » 17 Nov 2017, 12:49

The two sides that have recently won the world cup have systems that are implemented from youth level upwards. So a player of 19/20 knows exactly what to do, perhaps far more so than an experienced player of say, 28, who did not play in that system in their youth.

Having said that, Germany won it in 2014 with a 36 year old striker!

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 67338
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Diamond Dog » 17 Nov 2017, 13:33

Vardy shouldn't ever be confused with Klose, Toby! :)
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
"Don't be seduced into thinking that which did not make a profit is without value"
"'Seize the moments as they fly, know to live and learn to die'."

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 12865
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby The Modernist » 17 Nov 2017, 13:50

Toby wrote:The two sides that have recently won the world cup have systems that are implemented from youth level upwards. So a player of 19/20 knows exactly what to do, perhaps far more so than an experienced player of say, 28, who did not play in that system in their youth.


And that's great. It isn't justification, in my view, for promoting someone straight from youth sides to the full international side, without that player first having gained some first team club experience.
I also think we're going a little over the top in imagining how successfully or radically the junior sides have altered the way England play. An experienced footballer, never mind an international one, should be able to adapt to variations in tactics and formations. We're not talking about reinventing the wheel here.

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 67338
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Diamond Dog » 17 Nov 2017, 14:01

Interesting that Vardy has scored 6 goals for England in 19 games and only two of those have been in competitive matches.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
"Don't be seduced into thinking that which did not make a profit is without value"
"'Seize the moments as they fly, know to live and learn to die'."

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 32791
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Goat Boy » 17 Nov 2017, 14:03

What system do the youth teams play and how is this different from what the more experienced players are used to at their clubs?
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:we have lost touch with anything normal

User avatar
Dr Markus
Posts: 17670
Joined: 07 Jan 2012, 18:16

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Dr Markus » 17 Nov 2017, 14:04

With all these young players that can't get a proper game for their club team, if I was the owner I think I'd be pissed. For example, whatever amount of millions spent on drinkwater and the Loftus-cheek is arguable your man of the match for these past two friendlies, and playing as well as he can for palace. It's like why bother wasting money on a youth system. I'm sure there are other owners thinking the same.
Drama Queenie wrote:You are a chauvinist of the quaintest kind. About as threatening as Jack Duckworth, you are a harmless relic of that cherished era when things were 'different'. Now get back to drawing a moustache on that page three model

User avatar
PENK
Midnight to Six Man
Posts: 35067
Joined: 07 Aug 2004, 20:12
Location: Stockholm

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby PENK » 17 Nov 2017, 15:14

You do know who is paying for, sanctioning and in many cases demanding or expecting these transfers, right?
GoogaMooga wrote:
Minnie Cheddars wrote:Baron got into a fight with some Satan’s Slaves over some culinary issue

Awful thing when that happens. I had a similar experience at a Tom Jones concert.

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 12865
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby The Modernist » 17 Nov 2017, 22:14

Goat Boy wrote:What system do the youth teams play and how is this different from what the more experienced players are used to at their clubs?


They now use their knees rather than their feet to kick the ball.

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 67338
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Diamond Dog » 18 Nov 2017, 08:06

I wonder how many of those who pulled out of the most recent squad (most of who have all made miraculous recoveries to be fit for this weekends fixtures) will a) be selected in March for the Holland & Italy friendlies and/or b) will not pull out of those fixtures?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
"Don't be seduced into thinking that which did not make a profit is without value"
"'Seize the moments as they fly, know to live and learn to die'."

User avatar
Lord Rother
Posts: 6215
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 11:54
Location: breaking the legs of the bastard that got me framed

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Lord Rother » 18 Nov 2017, 09:00

Whatever way it goes in the next few months, so far, Southgate has played a blinder.

User avatar
borofan
Posts: 3160
Joined: 29 Jul 2003, 21:17
Location: Lost in translation

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby borofan » 18 Nov 2017, 16:07

Lord Rother wrote:Whatever way it goes in the next few months, so far, Southgate has played a blinder.

And, as a special bonus, he's managed to piss off Mourinho!
We're usually skipping around the function room in our long-johns by now...

User avatar
Diamond Dog
"Self Quoter" Extraordinaire.
Posts: 67338
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 21:04
Location: High On Poachers Hill

Re: BCB England football team thread

Postby Diamond Dog » 22 Nov 2017, 11:31

Just seen that Jones had six injections before the friendly against Germany and the England medical team didn't inform Man Utd?! I mean - what the fuck.

I'm all for wanting to play for your country, and I'm full of admiration for Jones in that case, but I fully understand Mourinho absolutely seething about it at the press conference yesterday. That's just not on - it doesn't matter whether Jones should have informed the club/refused the treatment... in the end, the England team has a care of duty for the players they are effectively 'loaning' from the clubs, and that kind of action just can't ever be reasonable, can it? Unbelievable.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
"Don't be seduced into thinking that which did not make a profit is without value"
"'Seize the moments as they fly, know to live and learn to die'."