Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby Diamond Dog » 16 May 2012, 09:15

sloopjohnc wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:I can't get my head around the reasoning, I really can't.

When you take a performance enhancing drug - that is, an artificial stimulant that will chemically alter your body to give you an unfair dvantage over your opponent- you KNOW you are cheating. It's not like it's a small difference - look at Ben Johnson 'bafore' and 'after'. Not in the top 50 in the world clean - best 'ever' when doped, beating the best easily and smashing records like a Sunday afternoon stroll. It's unbelievable to me that anyone who likes sports actually thinks anythingless than a lifetime ban is too harsh. Really, it staggers me. What is the point of having athletes at all - just have a contest for the best pharmaceutical company and be done with it.


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To be honest John, in my view, your line on drug taking endorses that kind of eventual outcome.

My question to you is - okay, ban people for two years. But what about the guys that don't get caught? Is it right, in your view, that a drug enhanced athlete beats a clean one - as they assuredly will- and gets all the accolades/titles/medals/acclaim?

Really?
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Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby brotherlouie » 16 May 2012, 09:43

It's my belief that a lot more athletes are taking performance enhancing substances than get caught. Think about it abstractly for a moment.

Drugs are taken to improve performance, and are them masked somehow.
There's not much point in doing it to move from 16th to 10th.
If performance is improved to get into the medals, then testing is guaranteed.
Culprits must believe the masking agents work or they wouldn't do it. Some get caught, but some must be doing it and getting away with it.

That, and a mate of mine who worked at liverpool university knew a sports science lecturer who retired from Team GB (or whatever it was called then), because they were 'all at it'.

Should they be banned for life, if caught? Of course.

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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby the hanging monkey » 16 May 2012, 12:37

If it's not a competition between who has the best drugs then what is it? Who has the best genes?

I think so, which is why I am not interested in any purely performance based sports in the slightest.
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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby sloopjohnc » 16 May 2012, 13:26

Diamond Dog wrote:My question to you is - okay, ban people for two years. But what about the guys that don't get caught? Is it right, in your view, that a drug enhanced athlete beats a clean one - as they assuredly will- and gets all the accolades/titles/medals/acclaim?


Like Lance Armstrong?

I will think of a better answer when it's not 5:30 in the morning and I have a couple more cups of coffee and brain cells.

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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby Diamond Dog » 16 May 2012, 13:39

sloopjohnc wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:My question to you is - okay, ban people for two years. But what about the guys that don't get caught? Is it right, in your view, that a drug enhanced athlete beats a clean one - as they assuredly will- and gets all the accolades/titles/medals/acclaim?


Like Lance Armstrong?



Yeah, like Lance Armstrong. If he has taken drugs, do you think it's right that he gets all the accolades?
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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby sloopjohnc » 16 May 2012, 14:26

Diamond Dog wrote:
sloopjohnc wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:My question to you is - okay, ban people for two years. But what about the guys that don't get caught? Is it right, in your view, that a drug enhanced athlete beats a clean one - as they assuredly will- and gets all the accolades/titles/medals/acclaim?


Like Lance Armstrong?



Yeah, like Lance Armstrong. If he has taken drugs, do you think it's right that he gets all the accolades?


If he's taken drugs? I'm pretty dang sure he has, but has had as good of lawyers as the drugs he took.

So, let's get some things straight. I'm not saying "dirty" athletes shouldn't be punished. Just not as harshly as the rest of you guys. Take an Olympic athlete out for four years and essentially you've taken away his or her prime. If he or she hasn't learned a lesson from that and can come back as clean, then more power to 'em. Also, with pro athletes. Take away a season where they lose millions in salary and they have two choice: come back clean or even get more dirty to make up for lost time. I think the second, especially with random drug testing most sports do, they wouldn't get away with it. If they do, then ban 'em for life.

Let's also get back to the "ethos" of sport, which I understand to be sportsmanship, and break it down a little.

We all want a level playing field for athletes competing. I know I did. I don't want the other team getting 10 points on the scoreboard before I even take the court.

But if that's so, then all athletes should have access to the same training, same coaches, same gear, etc. Why not make all golfers play with the same make of club? That way we know who's truly the best.

I have to say I've broken that sacred "ethos" a few times myself. I've intentionally fouled guys and claimed I didn't. I've trapped fly balls in the outfield and held 'em up like I caught 'em and I've had balls go out of bounds off myself and pointed in the direction of my team's hoop. Heck, you see it in soccer all the time when players fall claiming opponents fouled them.

I think almost every athlete plays these kind of tricks on officials to gain advantage. It's not fair sportsmanship, but it's the game within the game. According to you guys and your pure ethos, it's almost as if you guys would like to see these guys punished too.

My point is where do you stop and where do you start with the severity of this kind of stuff. Leagues set standards for sportsmanship, like intentionally injuring guys, but yet players aren't punished for routine bad sportsmanship. Where's the message in that?

With all that in play, I think taking away an athlete's prime for an Olympics and outside competition is enough punishment and taking away a season doles out the message reasonably enough for an athlete to reflect what he or she is missing yet still gives them some hope of competing down the line.

We all mistakes some way or another but deserve a second chance.

Maybe we can all make them live with the British monarchy so they're roundly condemned by the masses.

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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby Diamond Dog » 16 May 2012, 14:40

I think there's a major difference between the odd contravention of the rules of the sport on the pitch/field in full light of judges/referees who are there to adjudicate, as opposed to the surreptitious taking of performance enhancing drugs though John, don't you?
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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby sloopjohnc » 16 May 2012, 14:48

Diamond Dog wrote:I think there's a major difference between the odd contravention of the rules of the sport on the pitch/field in full light of judges/referees who are there to adjudicate, as opposed to the surreptitious taking of performance enhancing drugs though John, don't you?


Definitely, but I'm illustrating the opposite extreme opposed to the Draconian, "off with their heads," approach you wanna take.

Cheating is cheating. Or isn't it?

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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby Diamond Dog » 14 Jul 2012, 13:44

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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby andymacandy » 15 Jul 2012, 11:37

I did find it mildly amusing that having thought tooth and nail to get the legal right to get picked for the British Olympic team, Chambers neglected to run fast enough to make the team.
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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Jul 2012, 11:52

andymacandy wrote:I did find it mildly amusing that having thought tooth and nail to get the legal right to get picked for the British Olympic team, Chambers neglected to run fast enough to make the team.


lol. Poetic justice, they call that.
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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby andymacandy » 15 Jul 2012, 12:00

Diamond Dog wrote:
andymacandy wrote:I did find it mildly amusing that having thought tooth and nail to get the legal right to get picked for the British Olympic team, Chambers neglected to run fast enough to make the team.


lol. Poetic justice, they call that.

Yeah-of course, if he was quick enough in the first place, he wouldn't have needed the drugs.
Lets hope he becomes a footnote.
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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby sloopjohnc » 15 Jul 2012, 14:00

Diamond Dog wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18840448

And so it begins.....


I was listening to Sportstalk radio the other day and the hosts were discussing how many older athletes are now making the Olympic team, or competing, like Dara Torres.

It seemed to the guys on the radio discussing, and I agree, that a 40 yr. old like Torres, or a 34 year-old like Dunn, couldn't compete without the aid of some substance. Pre-juicing, we've seen some great athletes trying to get back to their Olympic level, like Mark Spitz, for example, but lack of youth got in the way.

Maybe some team sport you could, maybe, or some sport that involves more skill than athleticism, but a 34 year-old shouldn't be able to keep up with kids a decade younger than them.

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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby sloopjohnc » 15 Jul 2012, 14:21

Interesting interview with Victor Conte, the BALCO kingpin

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/V ... 707871.php

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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Jul 2012, 15:10

sloopjohnc wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18840448

And so it begins.....


I was listening to Sportstalk radio the other day and the hosts were discussing how many older athletes are now making the Olympic team, or competing, like Dara Torres.

It seemed to the guys on the radio discussing, and I agree, that a 40 yr. old like Torres, or a 34 year-old like Dunn, couldn't compete without the aid of some substance. Pre-juicing, we've seen some great athletes trying to get back to their Olympic level, like Mark Spitz, for example, but lack of youth got in the way.

Maybe some team sport you could, maybe, or some sport that involves more skill than athleticism, but a 34 year-old shouldn't be able to keep up with kids a decade younger than them.


There is another way to look at it, that being that (as the drugs cheats gets found out) they 'come back' to the field and those seasoned vets show that (actually) they were the best all along? But I broadly agree with your statement. And I'm going to say something a bit controversial here - there was a middle distance female from these shores who showed 'improvement' to win golds in her thirties, not so long ago. I always wondered about that.

Of course, the above is the only proof you need of the effect drugs cheats have on a sport - in the publics eyes, no one is above suspicion and everyone gets an asterisk after their name - no matter if they're as clean as a whistle. That is why drugs cheats should be shown zero tolerance.
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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby andymacandy » 15 Jul 2012, 16:05

Diamond Dog wrote:There is another way to look at it, that being that (as the drugs cheats gets found out) they 'come back' to the field and those seasoned vets show that (actually) they were the best all along? But I broadly agree with your statement. And I'm going to say something a bit controversial here - there was a middle distance female from these shores who showed 'improvement' to win golds in her thirties, not so long ago. I always wondered about that.


Did her times actually improve that dramatically though, or did the competition just get slower, as the cheats had to come back down?
I don't recall any hype about anybody getting close to world records.
I would like to see how her times changed/improved in that year, as I simply don't remember the background.

Edited;
According to Wiki, she broke the British record in winning the 1500m, but nothing much more significant than that.
It also reports (and I recognise Wiki's limitations) that it was about the first major games she competed in free of injury.
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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby sloopjohnc » 15 Jul 2012, 16:31

Diamond Dog wrote:Of course, the above is the only proof you need of the effect drugs cheats have on a sport - in the public's eyes, no one is above suspicion and everyone gets an asterisk after their name - no matter if they're as clean as a whistle. That is why drugs cheats should be shown zero tolerance.


Well, that's where I agree with you guys. Like baseball, there are some track records that will have a difficult time being broken with clean athletes.

For whatever reasons, ethical and maybe unethical, sanctioning bodies and testing almost always seems to be chasing technology and chemistry. I think they're closer now, though.

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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby Diamond Dog » 15 Jul 2012, 16:51

andymacandy wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:There is another way to look at it, that being that (as the drugs cheats gets found out) they 'come back' to the field and those seasoned vets show that (actually) they were the best all along? But I broadly agree with your statement. And I'm going to say something a bit controversial here - there was a middle distance female from these shores who showed 'improvement' to win golds in her thirties, not so long ago. I always wondered about that.


Did her times actually improve that dramatically though, or did the competition just get slower, as the cheats had to come back down?
I don't recall any hype about anybody getting close to world records.
I would like to see how her times changed/improved in that year, as I simply don't remember the background.

Edited;
According to Wiki, she broke the British record in winning the 1500m, but nothing much more significant than that.
It also reports (and I recognise Wiki's limitations) that it was about the first major games she competed in free of injury.



I've never checked Andy and, if that's the case, it confirms my first proposition that the cheats came back to the pack and the true athletes started winning their righful share of races.
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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby andymacandy » 15 Jul 2012, 17:05

Diamond Dog wrote:
andymacandy wrote:
Diamond Dog wrote:There is another way to look at it, that being that (as the drugs cheats gets found out) they 'come back' to the field and those seasoned vets show that (actually) they were the best all along? But I broadly agree with your statement. And I'm going to say something a bit controversial here - there was a middle distance female from these shores who showed 'improvement' to win golds in her thirties, not so long ago. I always wondered about that.


Did her times actually improve that dramatically though, or did the competition just get slower, as the cheats had to come back down?
I don't recall any hype about anybody getting close to world records.
I would like to see how her times changed/improved in that year, as I simply don't remember the background.

Edited;
According to Wiki, she broke the British record in winning the 1500m, but nothing much more significant than that.
It also reports (and I recognise Wiki's limitations) that it was about the first major games she competed in free of injury.



I've never checked Andy and, if that's the case, it confirms my first proposition that the cheats came back to the pack and the true athletes started winning their righful share of races.


I think its a much more level playing field these days.I don't think its that surprising that Britain has started to excel on a world level in several sports where testing has become much more rigorous-Bradley Wiggins,Chris Hoy,Rebecca Adlington I'm looking at you.

I also wonder how long it will take to expunge some of the *World Records* of the 80's and 90's?
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Re: Drug cheats - is a lifetime ban correct?

Postby Diamond Dog » 04 Aug 2012, 13:17

Looking at the 100m rounds, how is everyones perception of Gattlin & Chambers?
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