The all new Arsenal thread

[The Modernist]

I know they faced potentially crippling repayment penalties if they didn't meet the incredibly tough schedule they imposed on themselves (with the help of the financiers). I just wonder if they had spread the payments out longer, paying more in total but less per season, would they had been able to compete in the transfer market as they had done previously?

From what I remember the initial loan was at a very high interest rate. They then went onto a much better interest rate once a large chunk had been paid off, hence the desire to pay it off quickly. Whether they could have got a better deal than they did is not something I can really answer.

[Geezee]

Except Arsenal were always much a bigger and more successful club than either.
I get fed up of reading (although I'm not saying you've said this) this idea that Arsenal only became successful under Wenger. It's real revisionism. 5 Arsenal managers previous to Wenger won the title.

Generally, I don't think the feeling is that Arsene brought unparalleled success to Arsenal. But the way the club was perceived changed like night and day. When I came to the UK in 1990, Arsenal were the most boring team in the world. Which is not fair for sure - players like Merson and Limpar of course were very talented and unique - but they did tend to suck the life out of the game, and the reputation didn't come from nowhere. To turn that into the Invicinbles is one of the most remarkable turnarounds I think I've come across, because in many ways it did something even more difficult than create a successful club, which you can do with money - he completely overturn the whole culture and mentality of the club. Sure, the flipside of that mentality has perahps become evident in the last 6-7 years, but I can think of few parallels in world football beyond maybe Rinus Michels.

Or any of the other great managers and coaches in the history of the game (do I have to name them all..there are quite a number).

There is some truth to what you say, but it is an exaggeration. The 90-91 title winning side was actually quite attacking and fun to watch. But Graham became incredibly defensive in the seasons that followed and that has somewhat fixed the perception of him, especially when contrasted with Wenger.
What Wenger achieved was fantastic, I have no desire to argue that one. His great period only lasted five or six seasons, but it was certainly great. All a long time ago now of course.

I absolutely don't think it's the case that you can point to many other great managers and coaches in the history on this particular front. Ferguson, for example, of course achieved greatness, and he changed certain aspects of the culture - but his goal was always to perpetuate the past. Guardiola brought things to a different level at Barcelona of course, but in essence was a direct continuation of Rijkard, van Gaal and Cruyff. Wenger broke the mould at the club, and in the premiership. You may think of it as exaggeration - and of course most reputations among football fans are - but Arsenal rightly or wrongly had a very bad reputation in terms of style, particularly compared to both their local rivals Spurs and their title rivals Liverpool.

One area that really seemed to scar him was the poor disciplinary record that Arsenal had at their peak under Wenger - they got alot of criticism for it, and you could tell it really bristled with him since it didn't equate with the way he wanted his style of football to be perceived, and he felt it was unfair. He sorted it out, but...

[The Modernist]

How about Clough taking a team from the second division and onto titles and the European Cup? Or Jock Stein moulding a team of local lads into the best team in Europe? Or Sacchi taking Milan, a club that had been going nowhere for years, and reinventing them as one of the most fluid machines the game has ever seen? Or what Shankley did at Liverpool, they weren't always a big club you know.
None of which diminishes Wenger's achievements, but it's not quite as unique as you suggest in my view.

[The Modernist]

Wenger will probably be remembered as Arsenal's second greatest manager, after Herbert Chapman.

[Dr Markus]

How about Clough taking a team from the second division and onto titles and the European Cup? Or Jock Stein moulding a team of local lads into the best team in Europe? Or Sacchi taking Milan, a club that had been going nowhere for years, and reinventing them as one of the most fluid machines the game has ever seen? Or what Shankley did at Liverpool, they weren't always a big club you know.
None of which diminishes Wenger's achievements, but it's not quite as unique as you suggest in my view.

Some times some supporters expect you to be almost apologetic that you had success in the past, or that you had that one man that sparked the revolution in your team.

[Rayge]

Arthur Rowe taking Spurs up to the top division as champions and winning the title the following year with a squad containing no established internationals playing a style he invented (dubbed Push and Run) that was completely new to British football and was the English's introduction to what is now known as the passing game – basicaly it involved use of the wall pass rather than dribbling to beat opponents, and fluid inter-changing of positions.

And one of the members of Rowe's team, Bill Nicholson, took an underperforming London club from 18th when he took over to double winners (using just 17 players, three of them only once) in just two years, setting a new league points and goal-scoring record and not conceding a goal in the cup, reached the semi-finals of the European Cup where they were cheated out of the final vs Real Madrid that everyone was looking forward to by ridiculous linesman in the first leg, winning Britain's first European trophy in 1963, going on to gather two more cups, two league cups and another European trophy. Seemed like quite a transformation to me, both of them.

[Rayge]

Wenger will probably be remembered as Arsenal's second greatest manager, after Herbert Chapman.

I think he will be remembered as the best, simply because there's not many around who remember Chapman's Arsenal teams, there is hardly any footage, and so on. It isn't just the scale of the achievements that makes a reputation - you've got to have witnesses. I know a couple of people who rememember the Spurs side of the mid-fifties, and considered it at least the equal of the double-winners, certainly in terms of leading a revolution in style.

[Goat Boy]

What's the opinion on Bruce Riochs time at Arsenal?

[Diamond Dog]

What's the opinion on Bruce Riochs time at Arsenal?

Dennis Bergkamp.

That is all.

[The Modernist]

Wenger will probably be remembered as Arsenal's second greatest manager, after Herbert Chapman.

I think he will be remembered as the best, simply because there's not many around who remember Chapman's Arsenal teams, there is hardly any footage, and so on. It isn't just the scale of the achievements that makes a reputation - you've got to have witnesses. I know a couple of people who rememember the Spurs side of the mid-fifties, and considered it at least the equal of the double-winners, certainly in terms of leading a revolution in style.

Well yes, he is an obscure figure lost in time for the reasons you say. But I still feel anyone looking at it objectively will see him as the best.

[The Modernist]

What's the opinion on Bruce Riochs time at Arsenal?

Too brief to say. But he did improve the team (going from mid-table to fifth) in the short time he was there.

[KeithPratt]

What's the opinion on Bruce Riochs time at Arsenal?

Dennis Bergkamp.

That is all.

It has been suggested that David Dein was advised by Wenger to buy Bergkamp.

[Goat Boy]

What's the opinion on Bruce Riochs time at Arsenal?

Too brief to say. But he did improve the team (going from mid-table to fifth) in the short time he was there.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/what-bruce-rioch-did-arsenal-looking-back-20-years-his-arrival

Thoughts?

[Diamond Dog]

What's the opinion on Bruce Riochs time at Arsenal?

Dennis Bergkamp.

That is all.

It has been suggested that David Dein was advised by Wenger to buy Bergkamp.

I've not heard that one (although the article Dougie posts above says so too "It was (then) Monaco manager Wenger who recommended to buddy David Dein that the Inter Milan forward would be the signing to usher in a new era at Highbury")


I think it's generally accepted that Bergkamp was a Dein signing, over which Rioch had very little (if any) influence.

[Geezee]

How about Clough taking a team from the second division and onto titles and the European Cup? Or Jock Stein moulding a team of local lads into the best team in Europe? Or Sacchi taking Milan, a club that had been going nowhere for years, and reinventing them as one of the most fluid machines the game has ever seen? Or what Shankley did at Liverpool, they weren't always a big club you know.
None of which diminishes Wenger's achievements, but it's not quite as unique as you suggest in my view.

Again, if we are focusing on managers who disrupted the culture/style of the club, most of the ones you mention who turned small clubs into big ones, or creating teams with unparalleled success, are irrelevant - Wenger is nowhere close to these.

[Geezee]

What's the opinion on Bruce Riochs time at Arsenal?

Too brief to say. But he did improve the team (going from mid-table to fifth) in the short time he was there.

it was always such a curious dismissal - they never gave him a chance. And he just disappeared after that.

[The Modernist]

Dein had wanted to appoint Wenger before, but it was vetoed by the board as too risky. When it transpired a few players were unhappy with Rioch, he used that to oust Rioch and move in Wenger. Pretty ruthless really, I've never heard Rioch complain about it, but then the success Wenger achieved, and so quickly, invalidates any complaints he might have had.

[KeithPratt]

How about Clough taking a team from the second division and onto titles and the European Cup? Or Jock Stein moulding a team of local lads into the best team in Europe? Or Sacchi taking Milan, a club that had been going nowhere for years, and reinventing them as one of the most fluid machines the game has ever seen? Or what Shankley did at Liverpool, they weren't always a big club you know.
None of which diminishes Wenger's achievements, but it's not quite as unique as you suggest in my view.

Clough's achievements were magnificent but where are Nottingham Forest now? They've been languishing in the Championship for 2 decades or so. In the long term Forest's achievements were brief and there is no evidence that the success Clough brought them was sustained.

Shankly and Paisley are probably alongside Ferguson the other example of a manager transforming and perpetuating success, both with silverware and more importantly today, money.

I think Wenger deserves to be in that trio.

[Dr Markus]

How about Clough taking a team from the second division and onto titles and the European Cup? Or Jock Stein moulding a team of local lads into the best team in Europe? Or Sacchi taking Milan, a club that had been going nowhere for years, and reinventing them as one of the most fluid machines the game has ever seen? Or what Shankley did at Liverpool, they weren't always a big club you know.
None of which diminishes Wenger's achievements, but it's not quite as unique as you suggest in my view.

Clough's achievements were magnificent but where are Nottingham Forest now? They've been languishing in the Championship for 2 decades or so. In the long term Forest's achievements were brief and there is no evidence that the success Clough brought them was sustained.

Ferguson is probably alongside Shankly and Paisley the other example of a managers transforming and perpetuating success, both with silverware and more importantly today, money.

I think Wenger deserves to be in that trio.

Corrected that for ya.

[The Modernist]

Clough's achievements were magnificent but where are Nottingham Forest now? They've been languishing in the Championship for 2 decades or so.

You can hardly blame Cough for that - he's been dead for ten years!

In the long term Forest's achievements were brief and there is no evidence that the success Clough brought them was sustained.

I think you're using an unfair criteria there. Forest were a much smaller club with much less of a trophy winning history than Arsenal.

Shankly and Paisley are probably alongside Ferguson the other example of a manager transforming and perpetuating success, both with silverware and more importantly today, money. I think Wenger deserves to be in that trio.

I don't know..possibly for the invincibles achievement, but ultimately I don't think so. He didn't sustain success for as long as those two and more pertinantly didn't have the success in Europe. I think you've bought into the Wenger personality cult a little too much, partly because you continue to underestimate what a successful club, at certain periods admittedly, Arsenal have been. But I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this.