Premiership 2017/18

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Rayge
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Rayge » 22 Apr 2018, 14:27

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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Diamond Dog » 22 Apr 2018, 14:36

"That leads to other, deeper-rooted questions. Does Pochettino need a trophy? Of course not. Trophies are the point of sport, at least at a professional level, and there would be something very sad if silverware became less significant than league position, if the battle were transferred entirely from the pitch to the balance sheet. But at the same time there is something absurd about those who decry the progress made by Tottenham under Pochettino just because it has not yet been adorned by a trophy."

So does he need a trophy? No (apparently)
Are trophies the point of sport? Yes (apparently)
Would it be sad if silverware was less important than league position? Yes again (apparently)
Would it be sad if money was more important than winning trophies? Yes again (apparently).

And that is justification for Spurs not winning a trophy, apparently.

That's some fucked up logic going on there.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Rayge » 22 Apr 2018, 14:57

Diamond Dog wrote:So does he need a trophy? No (apparently)
Are trophies the point of sport? Yes (apparently)
Would it be sad if silverware was less important than league position? Yes again (apparently)
Would it be sad if money was more important than winning trophies? Yes again (apparently).

And that is justification for Spurs not winning a trophy, apparently.

That's some fucked up logic going on there.

maybe so. I don't do logic, especially where football is concerned. Logic is for those who lack imagination.

My view: no to all those questions.
The point of sport is enjoyment and entertainment, trophies are a bureaucratic detail, money is utterly irrelevant to my view of football and support, and league position has always been important, even before non-champions were ushered into the 'Champions League'
Spurs were always known as a cup side. I enjoyed all of the thirteen cup wins I've witnessed, but they were never the point of it all, and the glow does not last long.
What's important to me is that the team I support (my home team, not one I picked to bring me glory) play decent football at as high a level as they manage, which they are currently doing consistently while they only managed it in burst since the late 1980s .They missed out on the European Cup/Champions League for 50 fucking years, and now they've qualified for the third time in a row (and deprived the Woolwich of their entitled slot and helped to bring down their fabled manager in the process in the last two). How is that not a golden, good to be alive period for a lifetime fan?
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Diamond Dog » 22 Apr 2018, 15:02

It's not.

But the way you talk as though Spurs would only ever sack a manager who is playing poor, unimaginative, football - because that's all that matters.

Is that the case then? Have Spurs only disposed of unimaginative managers - have fans never bayed for the blood of imaginative managers?

Ossie Ardiles anyone?
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby The Modernist » 22 Apr 2018, 16:09

I think Ray's got a point to be honest. They're certainly the best Spurs side I've seen since 1987 (when they should've won the league). That's a long period to be talking about so really as a Spurs fan you should just enjoy it for what it is.

However, and I don't think Ray will like this comparison, they remind me of the post 'invincibles' side of 2007 ( the one with Fabregas, Hleb, Rosicky etc.). That side played some lovely football and were serious title contenders, but in the end we didn't have the squad resources to push it a bit further and win trophies. One by one the star players were tempted away for supposedly greener pastures and things fell apart. I do think there's a real danger that something similar could happen to Spurs.

It's difficult to know what more Spurs can do to progress. I think it'll probably need some kind of inspirational Salah type signing in the summer, but those kind of transformative signings happen once a decade, so it's going to be hard to pull off.

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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby The Modernist » 22 Apr 2018, 16:16

..but you could throw 50 million at Palace for Wilf Zaha. He would bring something really dynamic to the side.

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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Rayge » 22 Apr 2018, 16:45

Diamond Dog wrote:It's not.
But the way you talk as though Spurs would only ever sack a manager who is playing poor, unimaginative, football - because that's all that matters

I wasn't talking about managers or sackings at all. I was talking about how I feel.
But since you ask, all Spurs European wins and titles have been under the long-serving Nicholson (58-74) and Burkinshaw (76-84) and then, after Pleat (sacked/resigned after prostitute scandal) and Peter Shreeves (always a placeholder/coach) there was some more success under Venables with Gascoigne and Lineker playing, he left for the England job (87-93), then there was a bit of floundering, and the horrid prospect of Graham coming in (although not with the totally destructive effect of that other gooner cunt who took us down). And then in 2001 Enic came in and sacked him for being a shit. Then there were some disasters. Hoddle was sacked because the team were in the relegation zone (a bit premature in my view, but there you go, and there were misfires with Santini and Ramos: the Enic strategy was to attempt to build slowly, to sort out the stadium and academy and for that they needed something long-term. Jol and Hughton, who came between Jacques and Ramos could have been that, but I think Enic wanted someone younger, which makes it ironic that Ramos was replaced by Arry, but there you go. He stayed four years, and got Spurs playing Spurs-style (as well as Spursy) football, but he threw himself under the bus by being a greedy bugger and wanting the England job. Villas-Boas was the New Mourinho when he was signed, but he fell out with players and Dan Levy because he wanted full control and was being courted by other teams, and also because the wheels fell off results-wise for a while and they dropped to 7th. And then there was Sherwood, another place-holder, because they had decided Poch was the one they wanted. So, some have gone because of poor results and/or performances, some because they were gooner cunts, one because he couldn't keep it in his pants, one because his contract ran out and he wanted too much, two or three because they had a better offer and at least three because they were basically clueless/couldn't cope with football in England.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Diamond Dog » 22 Apr 2018, 17:16

Yeah I get all that Ray. I kind of admire your desire to be untainted by success etc.

In the real world though... football stopped being about fulfilling boyhood dreams a long time ago... whether you like it or not, the only way Spurs will be able to continue to attract those players who play your kind of beautiful people, is by your club achieving success. And, again, that's measured in trophies in reality.

But, yes, i'll retract my comments. You didn't talk about sackings. I did.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Toby » 23 Apr 2018, 09:30

I guess the issue is how we quantify "success" in the modern game.

For large clubs and players, then trophies are hugely important.

For smaller clubs, I would argue extended participation in a higher league (i.e the Premier League for a club like Brighton or Huddersfield or the Champions League for Spurs) is a significant mark of success, but not for everyone. Financially perhaps for the clubs, but not always for the supporters.

Then there is the fact of just winning games on a regular basis. I had a work colleague a few years ago who supported Southampton. In the Le Tiss years, they had the worst record of winning matches of any of the 92 football league clubs over a two decade period because they'd perennially flirt with relegation. When they were relegated to League One, he said that the actual fact of going to games and seeing them win was a joy and he'd take that over "participating in the Premier League" because he got his money's worth in enjoyment. I guess that is where the actual measurement of enjoying football by going to see a game and seeing your club play well at a certain level can mean far more than "ugly" success.

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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Darkness_Fish » 23 Apr 2018, 10:37

Diamond Dog wrote:Yeah I get all that Ray. I kind of admire your desire to be untainted by success etc.

In the real world though... football stopped being about fulfilling boyhood dreams a long time ago... whether you like it or not, the only way Spurs will be able to continue to attract those players who play your kind of beautiful people, is by your club achieving success. And, again, that's measured in trophies in reality.

As an Everton fan, what would you quantify as success for your club these days? I mean, you seem to be in a fairly distinctive position of never really flirting with relegation (despite this season's early wobble), and never really flirting with the Champions League spots. Would a League Cup win be a proper success, if you stayed mid-table in the league, or would a FA Cup win be the deal-breaker? Or would you be happy with better football than under Allardyce?

As a Wigan fan, there's always failure and success, as we've flitted up and down the leagues. I'm normally happy so long as we look like we have a manager with some method to his madness. With Roberto Martinez, even though we got relegated, you could at least see the way he wanted us to play, even if the players weren't capable. He had a definite design. Steve Bruce had a definite design, albeit a brutal, miserable one. Owen Coyle - you never got that feeling of any coherent strategy.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Toby » 23 Apr 2018, 10:42

Wigan won the FA Cup! That's more silverware success that West Ham have had since 1980!

As a West Ham fan, I'd say challenging for a European spot and not flirting with relegation over a period of more than 3 or 4 years could be seen as relatively successful. We tend to have the odd season of success that is based around a particularly good player - see Payet or Di Canio, but nothing more.

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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Rayge » 23 Apr 2018, 10:45

Diamond Dog wrote:Yeah I get all that Ray. I kind of admire your desire to be untainted by success etc.

In the real world though... football stopped being about fulfilling boyhood dreams a long time ago... whether you like it or not, the only way Spurs will be able to continue to attract those players who play your kind of beautiful people, is by your club achieving success. And, again, that's measured in trophies in reality.


I admire your grasp on the future, DD, but venture to suggest
1) that my 'boyhood dreams' were satisfied when I was a boy, and that in the last 60 years I've seen all kinds of clubs rise and fall, periods of single club dominance and periods of free for all, and it's all kept churning, all that time, and none of it has been predictable in the medium and long term. I've had plenty of glory years, and I'm not fussed about continuing to have them. 'Untainted by success"? What does that even mean?
2) your second point is a nonsense. How did Spurs 'attract' the players they already have? Answer, we bought youth and potential and grew a lot of them ourselves, and adopted a long-term approach. Spurs haven't made a 'marquee signing' in a while.
3) fuck 'reality'. No such thing, or rather seven billion plus things. My reality is about glory and winning matches by playing sweeping, innovative passing football. That has been the 'Spurs way' since the days of Jimmy Seed and Arthur Rowe in the late 1940s, and it warms me to seem them playing that way again. I'm sure they will go downhill again (as will Cheatski, the Etihadi, Manure, the Nomads and the Puddle), and others rise, but given that I'm 70, I might not live to see it, and may well be past caring if I do, so I'm going to continue to enjoy the sunlit uplands, despite all the people (not just, or even particularly, you) telling me it will all come to dust, woe and lamentation, that everyone will leave :) . Well, that's the way of the world, everything comes to dust, we all die, nothing lasts, and all that's left of those fabulous trophies are entries in record books.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Darkness_Fish » 23 Apr 2018, 11:16

Toby wrote:Wigan won the FA Cup! That's more silverware success that West Ham have had since 1980!

I'm not counting the FA Cup as a measure of success for Wigan, except in that season we won it. Because that was bloody brilliant. This season's run in that competition was an enjoyable digression (and it's always good to beat City, I believe every time we beat them is karma for Goater throwing the ball into the net in the play-offs), but I'd have been gutted if we hadn't gained promotion due to all those extra games.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Diamond Dog » 23 Apr 2018, 18:05

Darkness_Fish wrote:As an Everton fan, what would you quantify as success for your club these days? I mean, you seem to be in a fairly distinctive position of never really flirting with relegation (despite this season's early wobble), and never really flirting with the Champions League spots. Would a League Cup win be a proper success, if you stayed mid-table in the league, or would a FA Cup win be the deal-breaker? Or would you be happy with better football than under Allardyce?


Any trophy would success for Everton.

But would I want that trophy to be under Allardyce and his style of play? Nope. I'd rather we didn't get that trophy if it meant getting rid of him.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Geezee » 23 Apr 2018, 18:18

Diamond Dog wrote:
Darkness_Fish wrote:As an Everton fan, what would you quantify as success for your club these days? I mean, you seem to be in a fairly distinctive position of never really flirting with relegation (despite this season's early wobble), and never really flirting with the Champions League spots. Would a League Cup win be a proper success, if you stayed mid-table in the league, or would a FA Cup win be the deal-breaker? Or would you be happy with better football than under Allardyce?


Any trophy would success for Everton.

But would I want that trophy to be under Allardyce and his style of play? Nope. I'd rather we didn't get that trophy if it meant getting rid of him.


Would that include the 1995 team (which wasn’t very pretty to watch)? Personally I’d rather see an Allardyce-led Everton win the league over any of the big four.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Diamond Dog » 23 Apr 2018, 18:25

It's the combination of the less-than-pleasant style and the insufferably smug cunt himself, that makes me wish to see the back of him.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Geezee » 23 Apr 2018, 19:49

Yep no I get that, although I see the same or similar smugness in many managers. Leicester were not particularly easy on the eye when they won it, but Ranieri himself was at least highly likeable.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Darkness_Fish » 23 Apr 2018, 20:46

As if to confirm exactly what DD is saying, I've turned the football off and decided to listen to music instead.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby Diamond Dog » 23 Apr 2018, 20:48

Dreadful dreadful first half. We can't have another season of this shit.
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Re: Premiership 2017/18

Postby jimboo » 23 Apr 2018, 21:09

Darkness_Fish wrote:As an Everton fan, what would you quantify as success for your club these days? I mean, you seem to be in a fairly distinctive position of never really flirting with relegation (despite this season's early wobble), and never really flirting with the Champions League spots. Would a League Cup win be a proper success, if you stayed mid-table in the league, or would a FA Cup win be the deal-breaker? Or would you be happy with better football than under Allardyce?


A shot on target would be a start.
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