Premiership 2017/18

[KeithPratt]

Christ, Mo Salah is ridiculous.

The same sort of close ball control that Messi has and pace to burn as well.

Nearly a third of the cost of Pogba too.

[The Modernist]

The idea that Mourinho had him and De Bruyne and could see no value in either is both incredible and hilarious, and has probably done his reputation as a top level manager more harm ultimately than either the negative football or controversial behaviour.

[KeithPratt]

In fairness though, players can improve dramatically in different conditions and set ups.

I'm sure that all of us would have laughed off the suggestion that Salah would be top of the scoring charts in March. Yes, he scored a load of goals for Roma last season. But then again, playing with Firmino and Mane, he's thrived under Klopp.

De Bruyne, Lukaku and Salah were at Chelsea when they had a pretty full midfield and they lost only 3 matches in winning the league and league cup in 2015. Context is important. Yes, I'm sure Chelsea would be thriving now but it's easy to say that in hindsight.

[The Modernist]

In fairness though, players can improve dramatically in different conditions and set ups.
.

Which Mourinho manifestly failed to provide. I think it's an indictment of him.

[Diamond Dog]

In fairness though, players can improve dramatically in different conditions and set ups.
.

Which Mourinho manifestly failed to provide. I think it's an indictment of him.

And has pretty much failed to do with youngsters, since his Porto days.

[KeithPratt]

I think it would be an indictment if he hadn't won things with the clubs he's been at.

[Diamond Dog]

I think it would be an indictment if he hadn't won things with the clubs he's been at.

Even if he has let youngsters go who could have improved the side? I'd say it's perfectly acceptable to criticise a manager who passed on De Bruyne, Lukaku and Salah , what, three years ago - even if he did win the league that season. Indeed, it's one of the major criticisms of Mourinho - he's a win now at all cost and sod the long term future of the club manager. He's doing the same at Man Utd - does anyone seriously believe that Ashley Young (in his thirties) is a better left back than Luke Shaw is (at 23)? Or will be in a couple of years time?

[KeithPratt]

Oh I accept that to a certain extent - it is a valid criticism of him. But then, Chelsea have a thriving youth system reliant on loaning out players to other clubs, so I don't think it can be levelled at him entirely. I don't know what his record was like at Real or Inter.

There is no doubt that he prefers to buy in players to do a job there and then, but at the very highest level the pressure to bring in trophies is perhaps more important.

[Diamond Dog]

Oh I accept that to a certain extent - it is a valid criticism of him. But then, Chelsea have a thriving youth system reliant on loaning out players to other clubs, so I don't think it can be levelled at him entirely. I don't know what his record was like at Real or Inter.

There is no doubt that he prefers to buy in players to do a job there and then, but at the very highest level the pressure to bring in trophies is perhaps more important.

Of course. But Lukaku was scoring goals regularly at (much poorer teams) like West Brom & Everton - he clearly had the talent. Mourinho just didn't have the patience. That he has spent £75-90 million for him less than three years later is very much a case of self inflicted QED.

[Geezee]

How many young players has Guardiola developed?

[The Modernist]

How many young players has Guardiola developed?

Generally his teams have been younger than Mourinho's teams. Mourinho basically wants players who can follow orders to the letter.

[Diamond Dog]

How many young players has Guardiola developed?

Sane, De Bruyne....

[KeithPratt]

No, both of these players were bought by him.

This is about players being brought through from youth set ups.

Maybe Phil Foden at City but too early to call yet.

[Diamond Dog]

No, both of these players were bought by him.

This is about players being brought through from youth set ups.

Maybe Phil Foden at City but too early to call yet.

Hold on... Sane was what, 19, when he signed. He has in less than two seasons become a totally transformed player. That's development surely?

[WG Kaspar]

Sane was a first team player on a top Bundesljga side. I reckon this is more about adjusting to the league than developing. I'd say Toby is right after he left Barcelona he simply buys players that fit in his philosophy and though they all no doubt improve I don't recall anyone from the Bayern or City academies becoming a regular first team player.

[The Modernist]

No, both of these players were bought by him.

This is about players being brought through from youth set ups.

Maybe Phil Foden at City but too early to call yet.

Hold on... Sane was what, 19, when he signed. He has in less than two seasons become a totally transformed player. That's development surely?

Of course it is.
Busquets is an example of a player that was promoted from the youth team to become an integral member of the first team, but you don't find many examples because young players typically have to prove themselves elsewhere these days. But the likes of Sane, Jesus, Stones and, arguably, Sterling are still examples of players who had potential rather than being the finished article ( which is one of the things that differentiates him from Mourinho)
and have been taken up another level under Guardiola's coaching.

[Penk!]

How many young players has Guardiola developed?

Well from his time at Barcelona Sergio Busquets, Sergi Roberto, Pedro, Marc Bartra and Thiago will all quite possibly be at the World Cup with Spain.
Cristian Tello and Gerard Deulofeu have also played for the national team, and Rafinha has played for Brazil.
There are a number of others playing top-division football around Europe.

[Geezee]

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit (I fcking hate Mourniho) but I'm not convinced - I know of course it's received wisdom that Mourinho doesn't promote youth etc, but I'm not sure many of the top managers can claim that. Even Ferguson made two of the biggest head-scratching decisions that I can think of in letting both Pogba and Pique go. Ultimately, many of the Porto team that made Mourinho's name were young players like Maniche or Deco who were fantastic to watch, and his first Chelsea team also had plenty of youngsters (Terry, Cech, Cole, Robben). The current Utd team has quite a good balance between young and old - and while I'm unsure of whether Young is a better player than Shaw, Young has certainly been one of the best players at Utd this season as far as I can tell.

[Geezee]

How many young players has Guardiola developed?

Well from his time at Barcelona Sergio Busquets, Sergi Roberto, Marc Bartra and Thiago will all quite probably be at the World Cup with Spain.
Cristian Tello and Gerard Deulofeu have also played for the national team, and Rafinha has played for Brazil.
There are a number of others playing top-division football around Europe.

So it's a list pretty comparable to Mourinho's, it seems to me.

[The Modernist]

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit (I fcking hate Mourniho) but I'm not convinced - I know of course it's received wisdom that Mourinho doesn't promote youth etc, but I'm not sure many of the top managers can claim that. Even Ferguson made two of the biggest head-scratching decisions that I can think of in letting both Pogba and Pique go. Ultimately, many of the Porto team that made Mourinho's name were young players like Maniche or Deco who were fantastic to watch, and his first Chelsea team also had plenty of youngsters (Terry, Cech, Cole, Robben). The current Utd team has quite a good balance between young and old - and while I'm unsure of whether Young is a better player than Shaw, Young has certainly been one of the best players at Utd this season as far as I can tell.

You're right -you are playing devil's advocate. Deco was already 25 and had been in the team for three years when Mourinho took over. And Ferguson is just about the worst example you could have chosen to make your argument.
There's a reason people say this about Mourinho -it's because it's true.