70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

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70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Poll ended at 13 Feb 2010, 16:09

70s david bowie
35
67%
70s rod stewart
16
31%
70s footy in flares
1
2%
 
Total votes: 52

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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby the hanging monkey » 15 Jan 2010, 10:35

Diamond Dog wrote:
Balboa wrote:How much does being a songwriter matter though? I mean, someone's greatness can come through their interpretations of other peoples songs. I think Rod was much better at the latter than Bowie.


I love you Phil, but that really is a post for which the phrase "Clutching at straws" was invented!


He's right though. Rod and the Faces fucking owned virtually every cover they did. Reason to Believe for example is a fucking masterpiece.

I'm yet to hear a single half decent cover that Bowie has put out.

If this was pre '75 I would definitely go for Rod. Unfortunately he went very shit very quickly after then so I would have to give it to Bowie overall.
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby the hanging monkey » 15 Jan 2010, 10:37

p£nk wrote:
Balboa wrote:How much does being a songwriter matter though? I mean, someone's greatness can come through their interpretations of other peoples songs. I think Rod was much better at the latter than Bowie.


Image

:)


The important word in Balboa's statement being was.

Bowie's covers are every bit as bad as Rod's recent efforts.
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby Gabble Ratchett » 15 Jan 2010, 11:49

Sir John San Juan And His Old Lady wrote:
keith jennings wrote:
Lodger is one of the great albums of the seventies.


I know you mean that.

Yeah, Rod Stewart...I mean, "Maggie May" is a masterpiece, but somehow the fact that he copied it immediately with "You Wear It Well" indicates something very surface about his writing, and suggests that his few gems were flukes.

I always want to like him more than I do.
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby Balboa » 15 Jan 2010, 13:02

p£nk wrote:
Balboa wrote:How much does being a songwriter matter though? I mean, someone's greatness can come through their interpretations of other peoples songs. I think Rod was much better at the latter than Bowie.


Image

:)


Bastard! :)

Diamond Dog wrote:I love you Phil, but that really is a post for which the phrase "Clutching at straws" was invented!


Bastard! :)

I posted that first thing this morning and I come back to this!
Of course, I was mostly stoned at the time.

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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby Still Baron » 15 Jan 2010, 13:05

You should know that people get emotional when David Bowie is involved!
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby PENK » 15 Jan 2010, 13:19

Baron was heated wrote:You should know that people get emotional when David Bowie is involved!


Gabble Ratchett wrote:You Wear it Well is nothing like Maggie May you prick, if you wear around at the time you would also know it wasn't first choice as the follow up .
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby Balboa » 15 Jan 2010, 13:27

For me, some music can be absorbed and then I no longer have the desire to hear it again (Bowie definitely falls in here). Great when you first get into it, but over time it means less and less, until you almost have an anti stance on it. Lots of music goes here, and there is nothing wrong with that, it is just the passing of time I guess. It's like you squeeze every last bit of pleasure from them - probably lots of music from my youth as well.

Other types of music never seem to get absorbed (terrible attempt to describe it), and I think these are either never meant to be (Dolphy, Beefheart, Soft Machine etc - things that just keep getting better), or they are just so much fun that they always thrill (I put Rod and The Faces in here, probably The Beatles too). It's kinda interesting that my mind works that way. Probably just me though.
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby Bungo the Mungo » 15 Jan 2010, 13:31

Balboa wrote:For me, some music can be absorbed and then I no longer have the desire to hear it again (Bowie definitely falls in here). Great when you first get into it, but over time it means less and less, until you almost have an anti stance on it. Lots of music goes here, and there is nothing wrong with that, it is just the passing of time I guess. It's like you squeeze every last bit of pleasure from them - probably lots of music from my youth as well.

Other types of music never seem to get absorbed (terrible attempt to describe it), and I think these are either never meant to be (Dolphy, Beefheart, Soft Machine etc - things that just keep getting better), or they are just so much fun that they always thrill (I put Rod and The Faces in here, probably The Beatles too). It's kinda interesting that my mind works that way. Probably just me though.


No, I agree with the sentiments, but I don't get bored with Bowie. The Beatles provide me with much less entertainment these days than he does.

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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby yomptepi » 15 Jan 2010, 17:55

keith jennings wrote:Lodger is one of the great albums of the seventies.



No it is not. It is hugely inferior to everything he did before it. It is leftovers and rejects from other projects, and it feels tired and disinterested. For me it is a precurser to the horrible Scary Monsters and super creeps record, which saw our hero go from leader to cowed follower in one arthritic bound. Bowies records lost their magic, their inspiration and their muse once Low was released. How do you follow a body work like Bowies in the seventies?

He didn't even try.
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby Piggly Wiggly » 15 Jan 2010, 17:56

yomptepi wrote:
keith jennings wrote:Lodger is one of the great albums of the seventies.



No it is not. It is hugely inferior to everything he did before it. It is leftovers and rejects from other projects, and it feels tired and disinterested. For me it is a precurser to the horrible Scary Monsters and super creeps record, which saw our hero go from leader to cowed follower in one arthritic bound. Bowies records lost their magic, their inspiration and their muse once Low was released. How do you follow a body work like Bowies in the seventies?

He didn't even try.


This is how I rate his musical arc as well.

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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby Goat Boy » 15 Jan 2010, 18:07

The man was GREAT for ten years. Ten years! It's hardly a shock he became bored and couldn't be assed after that.
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby The Modernist » 15 Jan 2010, 18:14

yomptepi wrote:
keith jennings wrote:Lodger is one of the great albums of the seventies.



No it is not. It is hugely inferior to everything he did before it. It is leftovers and rejects from other projects, and it feels tired and disinterested. For me it is a precurser to the horrible Scary Monsters and super creeps record, which saw our hero go from leader to cowed follower in one arthritic bound. Bowies records lost their magic, their inspiration and their muse once Low was released. How do you follow a body work like Bowies in the seventies?

He didn't even try.


Except Lodger has some great tunes and some vivid, dramatic musical ideas bringing in exotic eastern rhythms, scorched white funk and the abrasive electronics of his previous Berlin albums. And that makes for a pretty heady mix in my view. A keynote theme of the album is travel, and it has the colour of a travelogue for me.
I've been arguing that Lodger is severly under-rated for as long as I've been on the boards, indeed one of my early Mojo posts was a long defence of it. I'm almost tired now of making the argument, I can accept that some people genuinely don't feel that it is up to much but I can't quite understand why they feel that way. I think at this point the only way I'll ever resolve this for myself is for us to do Lodger as a sync listen. At least that way I'll be able to experience what people find so poor about the album while giving me an opportunity to express why I still feel so passionately about it.

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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby Goat Boy » 15 Jan 2010, 18:17

keith jennings wrote:
Except Lodger has some great tunes and some vivid, dramatic musical ideas bringing in exotic eastern rhythms, scorched white funk and the abrasive electronics of his previous Berlin albums. And that makes for a pretty heady mix in my view. A keynote theme of the album is travel, and it has the colour of a travelogue for me.
I've been arguing that Lodger is severly under-rated for as long as I've been on the boards, indeed one of my early Mojo posts was a long defence of it. I'm almost tired now of making the argument, I can accept that some people genuinely don't feel that it is up to much but I can't quite understand why they feel that way. I think at this point the only way I'll ever resolve this for myself is for us to do Lodger as a sync listen. At least that way I'll be able to experience what people find so poor about the album while giving me an opportunity to express why I still feel so passionately about it.



Well said that man. Fantastic Voyage, Red Sails (The hinterland! The hinterland!) and, of course, Look Back In Anger are some of my fave Bowie tunes.

Did you read Ian MacDonalds piece on Lodger? It was one of Uncuts classic albums.
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby The Slider » 15 Jan 2010, 18:18

Lodger's alright. Certainly better than Young Americans. It is a big dip from Heroes and Low though.

the hanging monkey wrote:I'm yet to hear a single half decent cover that Bowie has put out.


Wild is the Wind is fantastic.

Sorrow and Amsterdam are decent too.
Apart from that - nah.
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby The Modernist » 15 Jan 2010, 18:25

Goat Boy wrote:

Well said that man. Fantastic Voyage, Red Sails (The hinterland! The hinterland!) and, of course, Look Back In Anger are some of my fave Bowie tunes.

Did you read Ian MacDonalds piece on Lodger? It was one of Uncuts classic albums.


Red Sails is such a blast isn't it, I don't know how one can fail to be engaged by it.
MacDonald wrote some very interesting pieces on Bowie, I remember his Station to Station piece which went into some incredibly esoteric areas to do with the Kabbalah. I don't remember his Lodger article though -I shall look for it.
MacDonald was meant to be working on a "Revolution in the Head" type book on Bowie before his death. It's a shame he never finished it, I'm sure it would have influenced for the better the way some posters on here view Bowie (if the influence of his "Revolution in the Head" is anything to go by).

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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby Snarfyguy » 15 Jan 2010, 18:28

I like the treatment he gave Can't Explain - slow and crunchy. I also like his version of See Emily Play.
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby Goat Boy » 15 Jan 2010, 18:31

keith jennings wrote:
Red Sails is such a blast isn't it, I don't know how one can fail to be engaged by it.
MacDonald wrote some very interesting pieces on Bowie, I remember his Station to Station piece which went into some incredibly esoteric areas to do with the Kabbalah. I don't remember his Lodger article though -I shall look for it.
MacDonald was meant to be working on a "Revolution in the Head" type book on Bowie before his death. It's a shame he never finished it, I'm sure it would have influenced for the better the way some posters on here view Bowie (if the influence of his "Revolution in the Head" is anything to go by).


here you go....

In the so-called 'Berlin Trilogy', Lodger is always thought of as an anticlimax after Low and "Heroes". Eno, who collaborated with Bowie on the album as he did on those two previous LPs, later confided he and Bowie had argued quite a lot about what was going to happen on particular tracks. It started off, he said, extremely promising and revolutionary but it didn't seem to quite end that way.

Certainly Lodger was made under less than ideal conditions. Recorded in two tranches - the first in Switzerland in 1978 during time off from Bowie's world tour, the second in New York early in 1979 - the album was, according to several participants, eventually released in order to get some new product onto the market. Despite the conspiracy of circumstances, however, Lodger has more going for it than was allowed on release.

With its theme of travel and discovery, the first side of Lodger reflects its author's most abiding concern: personal transformation. Bowie deliberately sought circumstances which would bring changes to his personality, adding a deeper cut to his character. This, though, was more than a device to keep his career fresh. The roots of Bowie's anxiety to push himself in order to bring about inner changes go back to his teenage interest in Buddhism. It was a passing fancy, but the underlying impulse - to quest for higher awareness - endured. The lifelong theme of Bowie's work is quality of consciousness. His obsession with revitalisation is founded on this motif: the need to stay fresh in order to catch what others miss and fashion it into an art of incessant provocation. The wrong words make you listen, he sings on Lodger's opening track, Fantastic Voyage. He is concerned above all to provoke unhackneyed reactions in his listeners.

Eno's main concern lies in outflanking the habits of his mind by using techniques designed to redirect creative flow. Bowie has used a similar technique ever since Diamond Dogs, employing the 'cut-up' method invented by William Burroughs and Brion Gysin. Eno's methods were distilled in a pack of cards called 'Oblique Strategies', each showing a message, such as, Honour your error as a hidden intention, or Don't be afraid of things because they're easy to do. These cards were used extensively by Bowie and Eno when making albums together.

Lodger was recorded in Montreux, though Bowie was still living in Berlin. Working titles included Planned Accidents and Despite Straight Lines, reflecting Eno's objective experimentalism. Bowie was interested in the effects these experiments had on the mind as in the way they characterised the design of the material. Adding the vocals in New York after the main work had been done, he put his own swerve on the music, reflecting his life at the time which, as usual, was driven by an underlying project to acquire more awareness.

Because of the deliberately disruptive work methods inherent in Lodger, it's often difficult to say what a given track is about. Thoughts criss-cross and collide, creating foreign contexts for familiar artefacts and vice-versa. Often Bowie himself couldn't say precisely what he meant. For example, the Neu-influenced Red Sails, with its quasi-Japanese melody, may have come from Eno pointing randomly at chords written on a board as the band played. Bowie recalled: Here we took a German new music feel and put it against the idea of a contemporary English mercenary-cum-swashbuckling Errol Flynn, and put him in the China Sea. I honestly don't know what it's about.

African Night Flight sprang from a holiday in Kenya during which Bowie visited Mombasa and met a community of ex-Luftwaffe fighter pilots, permanently plastered and always talking about when they are going to leave. It includes the lines, Lust for the free life/Quashed and maimed/Like a valuable loved on /Left unnamed. This may reflect back to Fantastic Voyage and its exhortation to remember it's true, dignity is valuable / But our lives are valuable too - an apparent counsel to someone trapped in their mind, unable to advance or grow. This, in turn, may link with the final track, Red Money, a rewrite of Sister Midnight from Iggy Pop's The Idiot, wherein the subject appears to reach a crisis point in which his or her identity is overthrown by a climactic experience. Such responsibility/It's up to you and me, Bowie concludes, again apparently referring to the album's enigmatic companion figure.

A further cross-reference to this figure and its consciousness problem figures on Red Sails: Do you remember we another person / Green and black and red and so scared. This shadowy companion again appears on the chorus of All The Young Dudes run backwards. It's possible that a further cross-reference to the experience expressed in Red Money crops up in D.J.: One more weekend/Of lights and evening faces/Fast food living nostalgia/Humble pie or bitter fruit. This in turn links to Look Back In Anger: Look back in anger/Driven by the night/Till you come.

Musical cross-references occur also. Boys Keep Swinging uses a chord sequence which is replicated in Fantastic Voyage. The cut-up technique used in the lyrics was also applied to the music via the faders on the mixing board. Often Bowie and Eno would record a part and leave only a click-track and a chord sequence for the other to add another part to. Adrian Belew's guitar solos were cut up by jump-fading between alternative tracks, often creating lines impossible to play in an ordinary way.

Lodger is an engrossing document, especially notable for its synth parts, which add character to the texture, often in abstract ways. Its voyaging, searching character is unique and, if it doesn't add up as a single listening experience, its parts are rarely without quality. It deserves a higher place in the Bowie canon than it's been allowed so far.


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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby The Modernist » 15 Jan 2010, 19:35

Thanks for that dougie!

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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby Goat Boy » 15 Jan 2010, 19:41

keith jennings wrote:Thanks for that dougie!


No worries. I'm still shocked that Lodger is held in such low regard round here. Ditto Talk Talk as well :roll:
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Re: 70s david bowie vs 70s rod stewart

Postby king feeb » 15 Jan 2010, 20:10

keith jennings wrote:
yomptepi wrote:
keith jennings wrote:Lodger is one of the great albums of the seventies.



No it is not. It is hugely inferior to everything he did before it. It is leftovers and rejects from other projects, and it feels tired and disinterested. For me it is a precurser to the horrible Scary Monsters and super creeps record, which saw our hero go from leader to cowed follower in one arthritic bound. Bowies records lost their magic, their inspiration and their muse once Low was released. How do you follow a body work like Bowies in the seventies?

He didn't even try.


Except Lodger has some great tunes and some vivid, dramatic musical ideas bringing in exotic eastern rhythms, scorched white funk and the abrasive electronics of his previous Berlin albums. And that makes for a pretty heady mix in my view. A keynote theme of the album is travel, and it has the colour of a travelogue for me.
I've been arguing that Lodger is severly under-rated for as long as I've been on the boards, indeed one of my early Mojo posts was a long defence of it. I'm almost tired now of making the argument, I can accept that some people genuinely don't feel that it is up to much but I can't quite understand why they feel that way. I think at this point the only way I'll ever resolve this for myself is for us to do Lodger as a sync listen. At least that way I'll be able to experience what people find so poor about the album while giving me an opportunity to express why I still feel so passionately about it.


I agree with you. I think Lodger is a wonderful and strange record, full of weirdness and dark colors.

It's Scary Monsters that is the "transitional record"...the precursor to Let's Dance, which signaled the end of Bowie's purple patch.
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