"If I Fell"

[Goat Boy]

Meeting Dylan didn't help them at all. Even if I were a fan of the rambling old sod, I'd say his influence on the Beatles was damaging.

Damaging in what way?
I think Rubber Soul for example owes a lot to Dylan.

It does. And it's an inferior album to A Hard Day's Night.

Help is spoiled by rubbish like 'You've Got To Hide Your Love Away' - and that owes a lot to Dylan.

Once Lennon sought less to emulate BD, and more to take what he needed and what he could work with - i.e. by the time of Revolver - they were back on track again.

I think you're limiting Dylans influence to Beatles songs that sound Dylanesque as opposed to something like I Am The Walrus, which whilst musically being nothing like Dylan it still has his fingerprints on it (would Lennon have explored such surreal Carroll esque word play without Dylan?). I think Dylans influence helped to free the imaginations of The Beatles.

[Snarfyguy]

I think you're limiting Dylans influence to Beatles songs that sound Dylanesque as opposed to something like I Am The Walrus, which whilst musically being nothing like Dylan it still has his fingerprints on it (would Lennon have explored such surreal Carroll esque word play without Dylan?). I think Dylans influence helped to free the imaginations of The Beatles.

I'd answer (to the bolded question) that he already had been doing so and offer his two books as evidence.

[Matt Wilson]

I think you're limiting Dylans influence to Beatles songs that sound Dylanesque as opposed to something like I Am The Walrus, which whilst musically being nothing like Dylan it still has his fingerprints on it (would Lennon have explored such surreal Carroll esque word play without Dylan?). I think Dylans influence helped to free the imaginations of The Beatles.

I'd answer (to the bolded question) that he already had been doing so and offer his two books as evidence.

The books were written in '64 and '65 when the Dylan influence was already in evidence.

[bhoywonder]

The entire notion of Dylan being a bad influence on them is completely stupid, as even the poster who suggested it knows, surely. Only the biggest simpleton would think it were true.

[Clippernolan]

Dylan damaging the Beatles is nonsense.

If Lennon could have made the transition between writing songs about girls to writing about Walruses without Dylan, I wonder how long it would have taken him. Where I think Lennon always had the potential to do that on his own, I believe Dylan's influence was something of a catalyst.

[Muskrat]

I know I never graduated college, but couldn't the "surreal Carroll esque word play" be attributed to the influence of Lewis Carroll?

Not to say that some Dylan influence didn't sneak in, but really...Lennon was caught up in puns and such anyway.

[bhoywonder]

I know I never graduated college, but couldn't the "surreal Carroll esque word play" be attributed to the influence of Lewis Carroll?

Quite. I don't see how that is Dylan's influence.

[Matt Wilson]

You know, I'm all for the notion of Dylan influencing Lennon (John admitted as much in the Playboy interview before his death), but I don't associate "I Am the Walrus" with Bob. I'm pretty sure John said that was Lewis Carrol imagery, like 'Jabberwocky" or something, right?

[Bungo the Mungo]

Damaging in what way?
I think Rubber Soul for example owes a lot to Dylan.

It does. And it's an inferior album to A Hard Day's Night.

Help is spoiled by rubbish like 'You've Got To Hide Your Love Away' - and that owes a lot to Dylan.

Once Lennon sought less to emulate BD, and more to take what he needed and what he could work with - i.e. by the time of Revolver - they were back on track again.

I think you're limiting Dylans influence to Beatles songs that sound Dylanesque as opposed to something like I Am The Walrus, which whilst musically being nothing like Dylan it still has his fingerprints on it (would Lennon have explored such surreal Carroll esque word play without Dylan?). I think Dylans influence helped to free the imaginations of The Beatles.

Finally it did. The earlier attempts to do the sort of confessional, packed-with-words thing that he did sounded very gauche. It wasn't them, they didn't do it well, and it was characteristic of a low point that came with Beatles For Sale and Help! - their two weakest and most derivative albums.

[The Modernist]

"You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" is a great song anyway, certainly one of their best from that year. The Dylan influence is there but it's hardly all encompassing. The arrangement isn't that Dylanesque, the lyric written in a fairly straightforward romantic idiom doesn't sound like a Dylan lyric and the whole bitter tone seems characteristically Lennonesque.

[Clippernolan]

I know I never graduated college, but couldn't the "surreal Carroll esque word play" be attributed to the influence of Lewis Carroll?

Not to say that some Dylan influence didn't sneak in, but really...Lennon was caught up in puns and such anyway.

But, it had never occurred to him to bring the two interests of Lewis Carroll and pop music together until the mid-60s. I think Dylan had an influence not so much on the style, but more on the possibility and range of what Lennon could write about.

[The Modernist]

I know I never graduated college, but couldn't the "surreal Carroll esque word play" be attributed to the influence of Lewis Carroll?

Not to say that some Dylan influence didn't sneak in, but really...Lennon was caught up in puns and such anyway.

But, it had never occurred to him to bring the two interests of Lewis Carroll and pop music together until the mid-60s. I think Dylan had an influence not so much on the style, but more on the possibility and range of what Lennon could write about.

Definitely. Although acid was the biggest influence of all.

[Clippernolan]

I know I never graduated college, but couldn't the "surreal Carroll esque word play" be attributed to the influence of Lewis Carroll?

Not to say that some Dylan influence didn't sneak in, but really...Lennon was caught up in puns and such anyway.

But, it had never occurred to him to bring the two interests of Lewis Carroll and pop music together until the mid-60s. I think Dylan had an influence not so much on the style, but more on the possibility and range of what Lennon could write about.

Definitely. Although acid was the biggest influence of all.

Agreed.

[Quaco]

I know I never graduated college, but couldn't the "surreal Carroll esque word play" be attributed to the influence of Lewis Carroll?

Quite. I don't see how that is Dylan's influence.

Maybe Dylan's influence was to show that you could do stuff like that with pop songs, not just relegating them to school notebooks and vanity poetry books. Freeing Lennon's imagination with regards to pop songwriting, as Goat Boy said.

[chunky]

If I Fell is flawed in structure and definately "sappy". But I do like it, partly for sentimental reasons like Footy, but also because it's one of those songs that sort out a good singer from a shower singer, like me. That one is really hard to pull off in the shower.
* sigh; you know what I mean. You have to make the notes and sell it just right.

[bhoywonder]

I know I never graduated college, but couldn't the "surreal Carroll esque word play" be attributed to the influence of Lewis Carroll?

Quite. I don't see how that is Dylan's influence.

Maybe Dylan's influence was to show that you could do stuff like that with pop songs, not just relegating them to school notebooks and vanity poetry books. Freeing Lennon's imagination with regards to pop songwriting, as Goat Boy said.

Yes, I certainly see that. And not just Lennon. It was Geroge who was into him first, as I recall, and you can hear his influence in McCartney's character songs too. But yes, of course, his biggest influence was as you say, to free them from the perceived constraints of the form, as it were.

[Goat Boy]

I know I never graduated college, but couldn't the "surreal Carroll esque word play" be attributed to the influence of Lewis Carroll?

Quite. I don't see how that is Dylan's influence.

Maybe Dylan's influence was to show that you could do stuff like that with pop songs, not just relegating them to school notebooks and vanity poetry books. Freeing Lennon's imagination with regards to pop songwriting, as Goat Boy said.

Thankyou.

[Matt Wilson]

and you can hear his influence in McCartney's character songs too.

Really? Now that's something I don't hear at all.
I don't think I've ever heard Paul express an opinion on Dylan one way or the other.

[Moleskin]

and you can hear his influence in McCartney's character songs too.

Really? Now that's something I don't hear at all.
I don't think I've ever heard Paul express an opinion on Dylan one way or the other.

Very short, but --



There's also this

[Moleskin]

It seems Bob returns the admiration