How broad church is prog...?

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C
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How broad church is prog...?

Postby C » 09 Feb 2019, 11:04

The question that sometimes occurs around these parts

When does prog become something else?

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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby WG Kaspar » 09 Feb 2019, 14:31

I got an idea in my mind but it's easily definable. Let's just say that I don't think of Pink Floyd or Jethro Tull as prog. Or Hawkwind or Fairport Covention.
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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Fonz » 09 Feb 2019, 16:50

Genesis, Yes, that’s pretty much it, really.
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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Lord Rother » 09 Feb 2019, 19:28

Big Big Train’s Gregory Spawton sums it up pretty well: “For me, it is the name for a genre of music which is recognisably rock music but which may be slightly more complex in form or in composition than other genres of modern popular music. Whilst it has its recognisable tropes it’s a very broad genre and can encompass many different styles and approaches which is one of the reasons I like it so much. However, whilst progressive rock shouldn’t be a 70’s nostalgia trip, I don’t have any time at all for the argument that it has to always be doing something different. If you move too far into perpetual experimentation on the basis that that is the defining nature of a progressive rock band then you won’t be playing rock music.”

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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Darkness_Fish » 09 Feb 2019, 20:31

I'll try to be diplomatic here, and I must warn you that I've been drinking for the last 6 hours, so I may not be entirely coherent. As someone who doesn't like 'prog', I don't have a strict definition, but I know it when I hear it. Not trying to denigrate the listeners, just my feelings on the music. Perhaps it's when music is veering towards self-indulgence, rather than experimentalism that looks to break free of its musical context. For example ... we can recognise the tropes, blues based rock with keyboard solos (often with two or more keyboards) that seem more for the keyboard player's enjoyment than the audience's. The grandiose pomposity of the lyrics or the way they're vocalised.

For example, Soft Machine veer close to prog, but they try and move the rock form onwards by introducing more jazzy elements, but keeping the lyrics and vocalisations grounded and sensible. Yes (the band) seem more stuck in accepting the rock form, but going over the top with the solos and fantasy lyrics, and not appearing to take influences from outside other genres, or if they do, play them entirely in a rock style.

Hope that makes some kind of sense.
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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Hightea » 10 Feb 2019, 07:48

My definition is far to broad to even argue with people here. Most people here think on symphonic prog, Zeuhl , RIo and Italian prog. Is the only true prog. You all don’t know what your talking about. Krautrock and Canterbury are absolutely part of the prog family although they have other elements too. Hawkwind, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull,prog folk, space rock, all prog elements . Go to prog archives . Just because you like it or it’s cool doesn’t mean it’s not prog

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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Hightea » 10 Feb 2019, 07:57

Darkness_Fish wrote:
For example, Soft Machine veer close to prog, but they try and move the rock form onwards by introducing more jazzy elements, but keeping the lyrics and vocalisations grounded and sensible. .
kevin Ayers soft machine and Robert wyatt soft machine were both major prog musicians. So is gong and daevid Allen side projects also not prog. Where does Brian Eno solo albums fall? Do we split up Eno ? Music for airports or another green world?

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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Hightea » 11 Feb 2019, 02:29

Ok little harsh huh? Okay how about prog is a bull shit term? after all too many examples of sub genre that have a prog and a non prog band in each one. It seems these days its a derogatory term for bands that have to fit this unknown definition or they lump them in but there is always an out for others. The truth is there was too much influences in the late 60's and early 70's that bands that were proto prog delved into prog and others might have took elements who is prog and who is not beats the hell out of me.

Not Prog?
Canterbury scene -National Health, Egg, Caravan
Fusion - Dixie Dregs , UK, PM Gong, Brand X
Krautrock -Can,Eloy,Tangerine Dream,Kraan
Space Rock - Gong, Ozric Tentacles
New Age/Ambient - Mike Oldfield, Brian Eno/Fripp

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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Darkness_Fish » 11 Feb 2019, 13:54

Hightea wrote:Not Prog?
Canterbury scene -National Health, Egg, Caravan
Fusion - Dixie Dregs , UK, PM Gong, Brand X
Krautrock -Can,Eloy,Tangerine Dream,Kraan
Space Rock - Gong, Ozric Tentacles
New Age/Ambient - Mike Oldfield, Brian Eno/Fripp

Blimey, you're confusing the crap out of me with your selections there. Don't know enough about the Canterbury scene to comment, but you've hardly picked the defining bands of krautrock there. Eloy? Kraan? I'm guessing they're prog, because I've never heard of 'em.

I wouldn't count New Age or Ambient as prog at all. No fast solo-y bobbins.

Although since, as you say, "prog is a bullshit term", I guess there's a bit of truth there. I don't even know why I'm arguing. I don't care for pigeonholing, I'm not sure genres are ever that well defined, especially when you're breaking away from a catch-all term like jazz or rock.
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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby The Modernist » 11 Feb 2019, 14:17

Prog always seems to me a bit of a retrospective term -would people have said "I'm into prog" back in 72?

I define it as stuff from the 70s which has a busy and complex instrumentation, more instrumental than vocal (although it usually has vocals obviously) and with extended forms and unusual time signatures. Soft Machine definitely fit the bill. I tend to dislike about 80% of it, but there is stuff within it (usually veering towards jazz or folk) that I can get behind.

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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Goat Boy » 11 Feb 2019, 14:35

The whole broad church nonsense has been a pernicious BCB con job from the very beginning, perpetrated by the high priest of BCB PROG, C and his more fawning onanistic acolytes for their ongoing Prog Corner circle jerks.

hence Krautrock becomes "prog", hence Eno becomes "prog", hence anything C likes becomes a bit "prog".

Honestly, they are worse than goths.
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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby DEEPLANK » 11 Feb 2019, 14:51

Goat Boy wrote:The whole broad church nonsense has been a pernicious BCB con job from the very beginning, perpetrated by the high priest of BCB PROG, C and his more fawning onanistic acolytes for their ongoing Prog Corner circle jerks.

hence Krautrock becomes "prog", hence Eno becomes "prog", hence anything C likes becomes a bit "prog".

Honestly, they are worse than goths.


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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Hightea » 11 Feb 2019, 15:23

The Modernist wrote:Prog always seems to me a bit of a retrospective term -would people have said "I'm into prog" back in 72?

Yes that is true. By the early 80's, it seemed to be more defined. Although over the years its changed even more. I've got prog compilations that came out in the 80's and 90's with tons of bands that many here no longer consider prog.

The Modernist wrote:I define it as stuff from the 70's which has a busy and complex instrumentation, more instrumental than vocal (although it usually has vocals obviously) and with extended forms and unusual time signatures. Soft Machine definitely fit the bill. I tend to dislike about 80% of it, but there is stuff within it (usually veering towards jazz or folk) that I can get behind.




While I agree with this its also the problem. Somehow in the definition of prog from the early 80's until now its lost a big chuck of what defined the genre in the first place. Innovation and experimentation especially in the ambient and the now segregated group they are calling Progressive Electronic ( IME still prog) - If Eno/Fripp (No pussyfooting/Evening Star, other albums),Tangerine Dream ( Klaus Schulze), Synergy(Larry Fast) are not part of the prog scene and part of what prog is then the definition of prog has changed. All this stuff when we bought it were in the same bin and influenced me as much as any traditional prog album.

Somehow because, the cool kids said so , electronic music/ambient has nothing to do with prog rock. Yet Robert Fripp was involved early on and is an important figure in Ambient music. The label of (No Pussyfooting)/Evening Star albums started Fripp down the Frippertronics idea. So the few albums where Fripp started the idea (not prog) and then several years later when he incorporated the ideas and reused parts of Frippertronics into his bands it was prog again? hm? Don't get me started on Brian Eno - come on cool kids tell me what of Eno's is prog and what isn't?

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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby PENK » 11 Feb 2019, 15:29

PROG: Hatfield and the North, Hawkwind, Thin Lizzy, The Australian Pink Floyd, Howard Jones, The Lighthouse Family, Laura Nyro, Arthur Conley, CPE Bach, Boyz II Men

NOT PROG: Echobelly, Spike Jones and His City Slickers, Fun Boy Three, Dusty Springfield, Slaughter and the Dogs, Lil Wayne, Magma, the Czech ice national ice hockey side 1988-93, Pussycat Dolls, Yes, Instituto Municipal de Turismo de Córdoba

Hope this clears things up.
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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Darkness_Fish » 11 Feb 2019, 15:33

I wouldn't consider anything I've heard by Eno to be prog. I wouldn't put it past him to have released some, but I haven't heard it.


I also really quite dislike Eno, btw. None of it is cool.
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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby C » 11 Feb 2019, 15:38

The Modernist wrote:would people have said "I'm into prog" back in 72?


If my memory serves me correctly G we used the term early 1974





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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Hightea » 11 Feb 2019, 15:56

Goat Boy wrote:The whole broad church nonsense has been a pernicious BCB con job from the very beginning, perpetrated by the high priest of BCB PROG, C and his more fawning onanistic acolytes for their ongoing Prog Corner circle jerks.

hence Krautrock becomes "prog", hence Eno becomes "prog", hence anything C likes becomes a bit "prog".

Honestly, they are worse than goths.



So is Fripptronics prog or not?
Is Larry Fast's Synergy prog?
is 801 (band) a prog album?
How about Quiet Sun?
What about Roxy Music? I'm sure you don't thing they are prog? Then explain how they dump Brian Eno and then add Eddie Jobson (this guy today is one of the biggest prog musicians and eats and sleeps the prog name)?
So Robert Fripp's album Exposure is prog but God Save the Queen/Under Heavy Manners is ambient and not prog?
So when Fripp works with Bowie and Eno not prog but when he works with Peter Gabriel he is?
Eno helped on the LLDB album guess that's another album that isn't prog then? What?
How about Diamond Head (Phil Manzanera album) - we see these days this one is not considered prog? really you must be kidding me?
Gong(non fusion stuff) and 70's Pink Floyd are they prog? I could make arguments on both sides.


then again like I said maybe nothing should be considered prog.

How about we just state the obvious.
Symphonic Rock is the only true Prog other elements are just different genre trying to be put on a prog label?

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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby Hightea » 11 Feb 2019, 16:07

Darkness_Fish wrote:I wouldn't consider anything I've heard by Eno to be prog. I wouldn't put it past him to have released some, but I haven't heard it.







Don't get me started on Eno and Prog. Yes he was other things but to not tie him at least some of his stuff to prog don't get it.

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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby The Modernist » 11 Feb 2019, 16:25

C wrote:
The Modernist wrote:would people have said "I'm into prog" back in 72?


If my memory serves me correctly G we used the term early 1974





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Interesting to know. Was there any particular album that caused that? I see Tales from Topographic Oceans was released December 1973.

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Re: How broad church is prog...?

Postby The Modernist » 11 Feb 2019, 16:33

Hightea wrote:
Goat Boy wrote:The whole broad church nonsense has been a pernicious BCB con job from the very beginning, perpetrated by the high priest of BCB PROG, C and his more fawning onanistic acolytes for their ongoing Prog Corner circle jerks.

hence Krautrock becomes "prog", hence Eno becomes "prog", hence anything C likes becomes a bit "prog".

Honestly, they are worse than goths.



So is Fripptronics prog or not?
Is Larry Fast's Synergy prog?
is 801 (band) a prog album?
How about Quiet Sun?
What about Roxy Music? I'm sure you don't thing they are prog? Then explain how they dump Brian Eno and then add Eddie Jobson (this guy today is one of the biggest prog musicians and eats and sleeps the prog name)?
So Robert Fripp's album Exposure is prog but God Save the Queen/Under Heavy Manners is ambient and not prog?
So when Fripp works with Bowie and Eno not prog but when he works with Peter Gabriel he is?
Eno helped on the LLDB album guess that's another album that isn't prog then? What?
How about Diamond Head (Phil Manzanera album) - we see these days this one is not considered prog? really you must be kidding me?
Gong(non fusion stuff) and 70's Pink Floyd are they prog? I could make arguments on both sides.


then again like I said maybe nothing should be considered prog.

How about we just state the obvious.
Symphonic Rock is the only true Prog other elements are just different genre trying to be put on a prog label?


I think all genres are elastic. You have stuff at the centre that epitomises the genre, but then you have stuff on the fringes where it's arguable. Roxy certainly have some prog elements, they were big King Crimson fans (Ferry even auditioned for them)..something like The Bob is pure prog.