crafting a song

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crafting a song

Postby CAN » 06 Aug 2018, 12:49

fuck off?
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Re: crafting a song

Postby Rayge » 06 Aug 2018, 13:07

there's room for craftsmen and artists in music, I think
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Re: crafting a song

Postby fange » 06 Aug 2018, 13:27

Super Furry Animals wrote:fuck off?

Not at all. I think this phrase has picked up some negative connotations over the years, perhaps after punk's DIY era. But for me it just means the song has been made with particular care - maybe over a period of time, maybe by a group of people together, whatever.
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Re: crafting a song

Postby Bent Fabric » 06 Aug 2018, 14:00

I feel like I know the difference between inspiration and hackwork when I hear it, but...you know, there's people out there like Jim Steinman (or "folks with co-writes on latterday Aerosmith records") who assuredly think that they've been struck by the same lightning as Chuck Berry.

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Re: crafting a song

Postby yomptepi » 06 Aug 2018, 14:10

When you look at the drivel John insults his ears with, It is hardly surprising he sceptical of what is a real skill.
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Re: crafting a song

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 06 Aug 2018, 15:28

The inspiration vs. craft dichotomy isn’t all that clear.

Inspiration will seldom give you 100% of a song. Even the most inspired songwriter will have to rely on craft to get the bridge right, or to come up with that second verse.
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Re: crafting a song

Postby CAN » 06 Aug 2018, 15:31

yomptepi wrote:When you look at the drivel John insults his ears with, It is hardly surprising he sceptical of what is a real skill.


:o


:x
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Re: crafting a song

Postby Bent Fabric » 06 Aug 2018, 15:54

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:The inspiration vs. craft dichotomy isn’t all that clear.

Inspiration will seldom give you 100% of a song. Even the most inspired songwriter will have to rely on craft to get the bridge right, or to come up with that second verse.


Good instincts are invaluable - for my own part, experience (rather than craft) may be what guides me beyond the germ of initial inspiration.

To my mind, things that sound labored or knowing occupy a very different end of the compositional spectrum, for better or worse.

And, yeah - many of the people who manage to awe me most are coming from a place where the apparent sui generis certainly SOUNDS fully formed. Rather than...you know, clever people clearly doing a job of work.

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Re: crafting a song

Postby Davey the Fat Boy » 06 Aug 2018, 15:57

Bent Fabric wrote:
Davey the Fat Boy wrote:The inspiration vs. craft dichotomy isn’t all that clear.

Inspiration will seldom give you 100% of a song. Even the most inspired songwriter will have to rely on craft to get the bridge right, or to come up with that second verse.


Good instincts are invaluable - for my own part, experience (rather than craft) may be what guides me beyond the germ of initial inspiration.

To my mind, things that sound labored or knowing occupy a very different end of the compositional spectrum, for better or worse.

And, yeah - many of the people who manage to awe me most are coming from a place where the apparent sui generis certainly SOUNDS fully formed. Rather than...you know, clever people clearly doing a job of work.


How would you separate out the difference between experience and craft?

I’m not sure that it is a distinction that I fully understand.
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Re: crafting a song

Postby Phenomenal Cat » 06 Aug 2018, 16:11

John Lennon's complete ignorance of "song craft" is what makes him a great writer. Elvis Costello is on the opposite end of the spectrum.
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Re: crafting a song

Postby Bent Fabric » 06 Aug 2018, 16:14

Davey the Fat Boy wrote:
How would you separate out the difference between experience and craft?

I’m not sure that it is a distinction that I fully understand.


I dunno - "facility" is the type of word that you could apply to either, and it may be something inherently more innate that separates examples of the two in my mind (I mean...you know how you react to Brian Wilson at his best, and that these are effects in the listener that even [especially?] our most seasoned and trained craftsmen can never even hope to approach).

"Experience" can possibly guide an inspired hand away from trite, pat or garish places and towards (seemingly) revelatory yet comforting (meaningful?) results, whereas "craft" might guide you towards the Bryan Adams co-writing gig.

I know it sounds lofty, and I'm not sure I'm doing any fantastic job of putting it across.

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Re: crafting a song

Postby Bent Fabric » 06 Aug 2018, 16:15

Actually, P Cat put it way better than I could.

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Re: crafting a song

Postby fange » 07 Aug 2018, 08:57

Phenomenal Cat wrote:John Lennon's complete ignorance of "song craft" is what makes him a great writer.

Maybe, though i'm not sure how far you could argue that ignorance towards the latter half of the Beatles era. But he certainly loved and seemed to prefer simplicity and directness in his songwriting.

Many of those final songs that came out though ... where does Georger Martin or even Macca fit into the picture?
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Re: crafting a song

Postby fange » 10 Aug 2018, 01:59

Is this

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Day_in_the_Life

not evidence enough for the positive benefits of "crafting" a song?
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Re: crafting a song

Postby Bent Fabric » 10 Aug 2018, 02:17

fange wrote:Is this

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Day_in_the_Life

not evidence enough for the positive benefits of "crafting" a song?


I guess it doesn't sound crafted to me. It sounds like two people with meaningful instincts simultaneously hitting a peak.

There's footage of Paul talking about it and he seems as awed by the raw materials as anyone.

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Re: crafting a song

Postby Bent Fabric » 10 Aug 2018, 02:20

Granted, it's a hell of an argument for collaboration.

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Re: crafting a song

Postby Bent Fabric » 10 Aug 2018, 02:30

Is it punching down to say that "A Day in the Life" inadvertently illustrates why, say, Jellyfish isn't "all that"?

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Re: crafting a song

Postby fange » 10 Aug 2018, 02:46

If you think Muhammad Ali versus Fighting Harada would've been fair, no problem :)
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Re: crafting a song

Postby fange » 10 Aug 2018, 02:50

Bent Fabric wrote:I guess it doesn't sound crafted to me.

There lies the key, the secret, no?
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Re: crafting a song

Postby Bent Fabric » 10 Aug 2018, 02:54

fange wrote:
Bent Fabric wrote:I guess it doesn't sound crafted to me.

There lies the key, the secret, no?


This is the goal, absolutely.