"Aqualung" cover story

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bobzilla77
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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby bobzilla77 » 11 May 2018, 16:48

It would be nice to hear that Anderson & co had made a donation or helped the guy out in some way when he was falling on hard times, like you hear about Pink Floyd having done for their former crew members. It's always unfortunate to hear about people who made work that I liked being in that situation.
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Matt Wilson
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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Matt Wilson » 11 May 2018, 16:59

I don't see how it's any different than, say, a session player performing a great solo on a song which is still played on the radio decades later. Some might feel that the solo makes the song, that it's one of the best things about it. The guy got paid for his services and doesn't receive a dime after that. Is he entitled to royalties now? If it wasn't in the initial agreement, then he's not entitled to further compensation.

Or a director or actor who contributed to a film which was massively successful, but they didn't receive points for the profits of the picture. Once they're paid, that's it.
Coan wrote:'Vertigo' is one of the best things U2 have ever done, one of a handful of occasions where they get it just right. That bit near the end where the song lifts off? You don't get that with The Allman Brothers.

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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Sneelock » 11 May 2018, 17:16

directors and actors, in many cases, make great, big brimmin' butt-loads of money!
in cases where they don't - the success becomes a calling card for a time.

the guy who invented the Egg McMuffin made Ray Kroc a buttload of money (people weren't buying burgers in the morning). the inventor supposedly retired with the same pension he would have received had he not invented the McMuffin. apparently, the guy was cool with that.

the guy who did the bass riff on "walk on the wild side" billed the producers for two sessions since he double tracked the bass. most people agree that his contribution radically changed the song. I think he ended up getting something more than what was offered.

good for that guy. I think we need to kick against the pricks & those guys with all the money in the world sure act like pricks sometimes.
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Matt Wilson
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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Matt Wilson » 11 May 2018, 17:23

I wonder though, if the artist could change history and not have done the painting if he knew then what he knows now. He's had the bragging rights for the last 40+ years.
Last edited by Matt Wilson on 11 May 2018, 17:48, edited 1 time in total.
Coan wrote:'Vertigo' is one of the best things U2 have ever done, one of a handful of occasions where they get it just right. That bit near the end where the song lifts off? You don't get that with The Allman Brothers.

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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Sneelock » 11 May 2018, 17:30

I think the shelf life of that stuff HAD to take everybody by surprise.
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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Sneelock » 11 May 2018, 18:42

here's another load off my mind. I agree that people didn't buy the album because of the cover but I don't agree that the album would have done just as well with another cover.

I think there's a lot of serendipity involved with things like that. that album and that cover have a symbiotic relationship. when you picked it up in the shop and decided if you would buy it, you probably knew some tunes already but the thing you were holding had a lot to do with if you bought it or not.

people who have loved the album for years have loved that picture for years. that picture has value. I think it's a shame that the value of the picture has absolutely nothing to do with the person who created it. it's not a yard sale sign, you know?
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bobzilla77
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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby bobzilla77 » 11 May 2018, 21:35

I know what you mean... it would be good to see the value of the creation result in monetary success for the creator.

It just seems to be the way of things. There's very few people outside of the label, the artist and the manager who stand to see big financial gains if the record they worked on turns out to be a success. Occasionally the producer will negotiate for a percentage point. Everybody else is paid in cash for their contribution & probably it's the same amount whether the album is a hit or a flop. But if you work on an album that turns out to be a hit, you can potentially negotiate a higher one-time fee next time. Hipgnosis probably weren't cheap to hire, for one.

I've heard that Raymond Pettibon claims never to have been paid a nickel by Black Flag for use of his art nor gave his permission (if you believe that... seems like by the time of the 4th or 5th flyer, he'd have started locking his closets). Well, thanks to his reputation which can be directly traced back to those iconic Black Flag images, he's a millionaire now. He may well believe he was cheated, and we might agree, but I doubt he'd take it all back if he could.
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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Mike Boom » 11 May 2018, 22:19

Its like Clare Torry , the vocalist on the Great Gig in the Sky, who initially got a flat fee of 30 quid, till she sued Floyd for songwriting credit , a case which I believe she won (and I would imagine earned a tidy sum in the end).

I'm always kinda astonished how miserly some of these bands appear to be, I don't think Roy Harper ever got payed at all for Have a Cigar. Not that they are obliged or obligated to pay a bit more once something becomes successful, but because I would think they would WANT to ?

Money, its a gas huh ?

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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Charlie O. » 11 May 2018, 22:47

Think of the people in, say, the Columbia Records art department in the '50s/'60s. They made covers for god knows how many hit albums over the years, albums that continue to sell, and for a flat salary; most of them didn't even get a cover credit. Like the session musicians, they had a job, and they did it.

I certainly wouldn't object to Anderson/Ellis/whoeverelse doing something nice for Silverman. But the underlying tone of the article is that Silverman was ripped off. And I don't buy it. He and Ellis made a deal, and both parties lived up to their end of the deal.
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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Quaco » 12 May 2018, 00:23

Mike Boom wrote:Its like Clare Torry , the vocalist on the Great Gig in the Sky, who initially got a flat fee of 30 quid, till she sued Floyd for songwriting credit , a case which I believe she won (and I would imagine earned a tidy sum in the end).

I'm always kinda astonished how miserly some of these bands appear to be, I don't think Roy Harper ever got payed at all for Have a Cigar. Not that they are obliged or obligated to pay a bit more once something becomes successful, but because I would think they would WANT to ?

Money, its a gas huh ?

The Roy Harper example isn't great because he was immeasurably helped by his association with Gilmour and the Floyd, as well as Page, Moon, etc.. Most people first hear him on "Have a Cigar". And it's totally possible that Harper someone who has financially helped by his heavy friends, like Robert Wyatt, even if it's not publicized.

I do agree that it would be great if successful artists shared the wealth more in exceptional cases. Where do they draw the line though? is another question.


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Re: Claire Torry (I didn't know this...)
Per DSOTM Experience Edition booklet:

In 2004, she sued Pink Floyd and EMI for songwriting royalties on the basis that her contribution to "The Great Gig in the Sky" constituted co-authorship with keyboardist Richard Wright. Originally, she was paid the standard flat fee of £30 for Sunday studio work. In 2005, an out-of-court settlement was reached in Torry's favour, although the terms of the settlement were not disclosed. All releases after 2005 carry an additional credit "Vocal composition by Clare Torry"[8] for the "Great Gig in the Sky" segment.
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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Mike Boom » 12 May 2018, 00:39

Quaco wrote:The Roy Harper example isn't great because he was immeasurably helped by his association with Gilmour and the Floyd, as well as Page, Moon, etc.. Most people first hear him on "Have a Cigar". And it's totally possible that Harper someone who has financially helped by his heavy friends, like Robert Wyatt, even if it's not publicized.


True, true.

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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby trans-chigley express » 12 May 2018, 02:16

I went back to the sleeve notes for the 40th anniversary edition as I was sure it mentioned something about the cover. According to Anderson he had specifically requested that the tramp should not look like him as he is singing an objective song about a character that is not him and was not happy that the final image ended up looking uncomfortably like him.

He was also critical of the painting itself saying: "I actually thought it was a scrappy painting. It was lively in execution but I didn't like the colours. It was a messy piece of work. To me, it didn't have the punch and clarity I wanted. I never liked it much as an album cover, although it now seems like an iconic piece of work."

He goes on to say that Silverman tried to sue him but says it was nothing to do with him as he didn't commission it and told him he should deal with the record company or Terry Ellis and as far as he was concerned Silverman was paid a good sum for the work and as far as the record company were concerned they then had the rights to use it for whatever purposes they chose.

Interesting to read also that The Aqualung Corporation of North America filed a lawsuit for copyright infingement for the album's title. Anderson had no idea it was a registered trademark and thought it was a just a generic term for the scuba diving oxygen tank. When the album starting selling well the lawsuit was dropped as it was a good advert for them.

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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Quaco » 12 May 2018, 02:52

trans-chigley express wrote:I went back to the sleeve notes for the 40th anniversary edition as I was sure it mentioned something about the cover. According to Anderson he had specifically requested that the tramp should not look like him as he is singing an objective song about a character that is not him and was not happy that the final image ended up looking uncomfortably like him.

He was also critical of the painting itself saying: "I actually thought it was a scrappy painting. It was lively in execution but I didn't like the colours. It was a messy piece of work. To me, it didn't have the punch and clarity I wanted. I never liked it much as an album cover, although it now seems like an iconic piece of work."

But I'm sure he thinks Stormwatch (cover concept: Ian Anderson) is great.

He's as blind as Roland Kirk!
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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby trans-chigley express » 12 May 2018, 05:45

Quaco wrote:But I'm sure he thinks Stormwatch (cover concept: Ian Anderson) is great.

He's as blind as Roland Kirk!

Quite. If the Aqualung cover was based on his idea he’d declare it a masterpiece

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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Lord Rother » 12 May 2018, 06:21

This discussion is a joke. It’s a shite cover anyway.

He got paid for doing it.

Lefty twats.

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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Thang-y » 12 May 2018, 09:46

I had a long reply but got tangled in it.

One question - where does it say he's in financial hardship? I'm not saying he isn't, I just can't see where it says that. You could say it's inferred but I rather thought it was a moral "I wasn't fairly paid" thing rather than the "I desperately need the money" thing.

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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Bent Fabric » 12 May 2018, 13:02

Yeah - I don't get at all that the man is in any sort of hardship, but rather is simply aggrieved that a work for hire has been monetized by others for going on 50 years. Reading the article, you get the sense that he ultimately wishes he'd "done a Peggy Lee", and I can't blame him. The terms of the agreement surely require no further elucidation here, but I don't especially find myself on the side of folks who continue to profit from it while shrugging their shoulders and saying "Take it up with someone else."

I would also think that the added insult of Anderson/et. al. sort of blithely insisting "It's a portrait of me" when it isn't...I think - in this context, especially - more people than not would find that sort of thing frustrating.

Any scenario where a person feels invisible has the potential to be toxic.

The Clare Torry precedent is interesting to me - if your contribution is germane to the shape of an iconic work that continues to earn from innumerable revenue streams, some acknowledgement and or remuneration seems quite fair and just - "work for hire" or not.

It's been said a few times here, and I can't dispute it, that some massive percentage of "this type of thing" ends up in the cutout bin immediately and for all eternity (for narrative purposes, there is a 1980s indie-ish band called Dumptruck - yes, Dumptruck - whom I have never heard, nor have I ever seen a record cover: their trade name lends itself well to a certain type of shorthand. To the point that is made upthread, I'm guessing no one feels they were unjustly compensated for their contribution to those records).

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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby caramba » 12 May 2018, 15:34

Interesting to learn just how little control IA had over the cover to begin with. Like several other posters here, I, too, have always thought the pic was meant to be him.

Wonder how much Siverman's whingeing is motivated by the fact that 2018 is Tull's 50th anniversary, and interest in the band is higher than it's been in many, many years.

I think the fact that the ambulance chasers are passing on a day in court by telling the artist he doesn't have a hope in hell says it all.

Also can't help but wonder whether he has refunded some of the generous fees he rececived for other covers where the commissioning acts' careers didn't turn out as well as IA's...

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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Matt Wilson » 12 May 2018, 16:21

Who did the Dark Side of the Moon cover? Is that guy a multi millionaire now?
Coan wrote:'Vertigo' is one of the best things U2 have ever done, one of a handful of occasions where they get it just right. That bit near the end where the song lifts off? You don't get that with The Allman Brothers.

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Re: "Aqualung" cover story

Postby Thang-y » 12 May 2018, 16:34

Matt Wilson wrote:Who did the Dark Side of the Moon cover? Is that guy a multi millionaire now?


You can't compare a guy commissioned early on for some artwork for one album to a professional graphic designer who was in the business of album cover design.



http://www.stormstudiosdesign.com/