Musical betrayals

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Minnie Cheddars
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Minnie Cheddars » 06 Aug 2017, 01:16

Charlie O. wrote:
A.Tremble wrote:I'm completely baffled by the hatred for "Do You Think I'm Sexy' - it is quite clearly a bloody great song.

Yeah, actually. I didn't think so at the time, but I do now.


Yeah, it's great! The intro makes me grin. I love it.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Six String » 06 Aug 2017, 01:26

A.Tremble wrote:I'm completely baffled by the hatred for "Do You Think I'm Sexy' - it is quite clearly a bloody great song.



Alejandro Escovedo agrees. I've seen him perform it several times.

Speaking of Al I'm not crazy about the direction he has taken since signing on with Springsteen's management. He has shifted the balance to more rock, less folk when it used to be the other way around. He doesn't play The Palms anymore either, sniff. :cry:

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby take5_d_shorterer » 06 Aug 2017, 03:36

Then it's a difference of opinion. "Da Ya Think I'm Sexy" sounds like a mish-mash to me. The grit in the vocals sounds incongruous with the band or the song. It's like finding sand in your food. Of course, it's that's the point of the song, that's fine. I'm still surprised that this sold so many copies.

For 70s dance music, I'd rather hear



Of course, some might find it incongruous as well. Before the vocals, strings, and guitar kick in, it almost sounds like a prototype for Joy Division/New Order. I like that.



On a different matter, I've always associated Escovedo with rock. I know he has wide interests, but this is how I think of him


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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Moleskin » 06 Aug 2017, 10:27

The Modernist wrote:
Dr. B. Eef wrote:Anything else from that era?

'Dancing With Tears In My Eyes'?


Wasn't so keen on that one, but count me in for "Reap The Wild Wind", "All Stood Still" and "The New Europeans".


I like most of the Vienna and Rage in Eden albums and bits thereafter, including "Reap the Wild Wind " and "Lament" but there was a steep drop-off. There was something insubstantial about the Quartet album.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby The Modernist » 06 Aug 2017, 16:32

take5_d_shorterer wrote:Then it's a difference of opinion. "Da Ya Think I'm Sexy" sounds like a mish-mash to me. The grit in the vocals sounds incongruous with the band or the song. It's like finding sand in your food. Of course, it's that's the point of the song, that's fine. I'm still surprised that this sold so many copies.

For 70s dance music, I'd rather hear





Of course.
But the idea that Chic is better than late 70s Rod is analogous to saying I would rather go on a Caribbean cruise than have my nuts put in a clamp and then crushed. It's a given, isn't it?

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Minnie Cheddars » 06 Aug 2017, 19:29

The Modernist wrote:
take5_d_shorterer wrote:Then it's a difference of opinion. "Da Ya Think I'm Sexy" sounds like a mish-mash to me. The grit in the vocals sounds incongruous with the band or the song. It's like finding sand in your food. Of course, it's that's the point of the song, that's fine. I'm still surprised that this sold so many copies.

For 70s dance music, I'd rather hear





Of course.
But the idea that Chic is better than late 70s Rod is analogous to saying I would rather go on a Caribbean cruise than have my nuts put in a clamp and then crushed. It's a given, isn't it?


Not if you're a sea-wary pineapple hating masochist.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby The Modernist » 06 Aug 2017, 19:33

A.Tremble wrote:
Not if you're a sea-wary pineapple hating masochist.


I'm not sure that I've ever come across one of those, but there's still time!

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Goat Boy » 06 Aug 2017, 19:45



I don't care for Rods original but I do have a soft spot for this.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Tactful Cactus » 06 Aug 2017, 21:03

Six String wrote:
A.Tremble wrote:I'm completely baffled by the hatred for "Do You Think I'm Sexy' - it is quite clearly a bloody great song.


Alejandro Escovedo agrees.


So does Jorge Ben


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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Quaco » 06 Aug 2017, 21:09

Bent Fabric wrote:I will second a great number of the nominated, for sure.

In terms of a number of these acts (most prominently the Replacements, but...also X, Metallica and some others who "lost what they had"), I picture a certain improbable lightning in a bottle effect. Some truly untraceable confluence of factors "allows" their best moments to occur, and it can only be a matter of time before any number of those elements shifts or settles. You wouldn't even know if you were in the eye of the hurricane that X, Y or Z was some crucial load bearing condition of greatness. I mean, yeah - Bob Stinson and Cliff Burton are powerful avatars for "guys who surely took the magic with them when they left/died", but...who knows, really? The former seems (by many accounts) to have been the classic Syd Barrett "It certainly wasn't going to go on with him any longer" case, and the latter may have, indeed, balanced some crucial things that needed balancing, but also serves as a powerful martyr for "They never made a bad record when HE was alive!" cause/effect theorizing.

Really interesting post, BF. I sometimes see artists as being great only when they are in a certain mindset, rather than a certain part of their development. It seems obvious to me that Ian Anderson was only great when he was married to his first wife, and the rest of the time he was very annoying -- or is it just that that's the material that most resonates with me?
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Six String » 07 Aug 2017, 05:17

take5_d_shorterer wrote:Then it's a difference of opinion. "Da Ya Think I'm Sexy" sounds like a mish-mash to me. The grit in the vocals sounds incongruous with the band or the song. It's like finding sand in your food. Of course, it's that's the point of the song, that's fine. I'm still surprised that this sold so many copies.

For 70s dance music, I'd rather hear



Of course, some might find it incongruous as well. Before the vocals, strings, and guitar kick in, it almost sounds like a prototype for Joy Division/New Order. I like that.



On a different matter, I've always associated Escovedo with rock. I know he has wide interests, but this is how I think of him



Sure, he's been a rocker since day one but his music was moving to a more singer songwriter style wth a few rockers tossed in and then he signed with Landau and Co. and there was a perceptible shift to a more rockin' format. I enjoy his rocking songs so it's not that, but the balance shifted. Besides he had Buik McKane when he wanted to get his Ya Ya's out.

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Neige » 07 Aug 2017, 11:38

Goat Boy wrote:

I don't care for Rods original but I do have a soft spot for this.


Rod's original always makes me want to listen to this:
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Tactful Cactus » 07 Aug 2017, 11:54

Quaco wrote:
Bent Fabric wrote:I will second a great number of the nominated, for sure.

In terms of a number of these acts (most prominently the Replacements, but...also X, Metallica and some others who "lost what they had"), I picture a certain improbable lightning in a bottle effect. Some truly untraceable confluence of factors "allows" their best moments to occur, and it can only be a matter of time before any number of those elements shifts or settles. You wouldn't even know if you were in the eye of the hurricane that X, Y or Z was some crucial load bearing condition of greatness. I mean, yeah - Bob Stinson and Cliff Burton are powerful avatars for "guys who surely took the magic with them when they left/died", but...who knows, really? The former seems (by many accounts) to have been the classic Syd Barrett "It certainly wasn't going to go on with him any longer" case, and the latter may have, indeed, balanced some crucial things that needed balancing, but also serves as a powerful martyr for "They never made a bad record when HE was alive!" cause/effect theorizing.

Really interesting post, BF. I sometimes see artists as being great only when they are in a certain mindset, rather than a certain part of their development. It seems obvious to me that Ian Anderson was only great when he was married to his first wife, and the rest of the time he was very annoying -- or is it just that that's the material that most resonates with me?


Early to mid-20's seems to be the catchment area. You have enough money to survive without money becoming a distraction. No family, legal or business issues either. Its the moment when your creativity has centre stage, full potential. If you don't make your best music in that moment you never will. The true geniuses like Bowie managed to recreate or reinvent those circumstances over and over again, but its never the same as that singular moment ('71/72). It would make a good thesis for someone.

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby take5_d_shorterer » 07 Aug 2017, 13:27

Generally so in pop music, but there are notable exceptions.



Of course that could be evidence that this really isn't pop music but some other genre.

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 07 Aug 2017, 13:53

take5_d_shorterer wrote:Generally so in pop music, but there are notable exceptions.



Of course that could be evidence that this really isn't pop music but some other genre.


Good call -

I'd say it's pop music, adventurous pop music. To me it's not 'experimental', or 'vaudeville', 'music hall', I don't know... perhaps by default it pop IMHO.

It's certainly based on blues structures, folky ideas ('In The Neighbourhood'), old piano ballads...

Sui generis?
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Tactful Cactus » 07 Aug 2017, 14:06

take5_d_shorterer wrote:Generally so in pop music, but there are notable exceptions.
Of course that could be evidence that this really isn't pop music but some other genre.


I was waiting for that! I think he's the exception that proves the rule. Waits is one of the only examples where the circumstances of his creative peak occurred after his 20's, after he got married, and after he embarked on a musical career and business model that had to sustain growth. I must go back to Barney Hoskyns book to read again how it all came about but on the other hand some would argue that he fits the traditional process and his first few albums were his creative peak.

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Bride Of Sea Of Tunes » 07 Aug 2017, 14:58

Tactful Cactus wrote:
take5_d_shorterer wrote:Generally so in pop music, but there are notable exceptions.
Of course that could be evidence that this really isn't pop music but some other genre.


I was waiting for that! I think he's the exception that proves the rule. Waits is one of the only examples where the circumstances of his creative peak occurred after his 20's, after he got married, and after he embarked on a musical career and business model that had to sustain growth. I must go back to Barney Hoskyns book to read again how it all came about but on the other hand some would argue that he fits the traditional process and his first few albums were his creative peak.


Cheers for this -

I always wonder about who Tom Waits is - when I play an LP of his.

Sometimes I think: he started out on a real peak, and kept his standards high. He had assumed a certain persona in his early 20s, which is not uncommon in artistry. That of a world-weary, regretful, wizened, urban bohemian (pardon me the clumsy expression). As students we loved this type of music so much.

Did he become the real TW he always had wanted to be in 1983? I think he was no 'impersonator' any more - did he stop playing a role?

Obviously I don't have any clear cut answer to all of this.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Count Machuki » 07 Aug 2017, 15:13

Tactful Cactus wrote:
Six String wrote:
A.Tremble wrote:I'm completely baffled by the hatred for "Do You Think I'm Sexy' - it is quite clearly a bloody great song.


Alejandro Escovedo agrees.


So does Jorge Ben




and Bobby Womack



I like that song ok, but it's just a blatant rip of two other songs
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Tactful Cactus » 07 Aug 2017, 16:03

Count Machuki wrote:I like that song ok, but it's just a blatant rip of two other songs


Flip sake! I didn't realise he stole the riff from BW aswell. Shameful.

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby take5_d_shorterer » 07 Aug 2017, 17:51

Bride Of Sea Of Tunes wrote:

I always wonder about who Tom Waits is - when I play an LP of his.

Sometimes I think: he started out on a real peak, and kept his standards high. He had assumed a certain persona in his early 20s, which is not uncommon in artistry. That of a world-weary, regretful, wizened, urban bohemian (pardon me the clumsy expression). As students we loved this type of music so much.

Did he become the real TW he always had wanted to be in 1983? I think he was no 'impersonator' any more - did he stop playing a role?

Obviously I don't have any clear cut answer to all of this.


The answer that Waits gives (and I have no reason to doubt it) is that the sea-change occurs when he met his wife, Kathleen Brennan, on the film, One From the Heart.

Tom Waits before Brennan sounds very different from after Brennan. He has said that her musical tastes are much more eccentric than his. He's also said that she gave him the confidence to pursue making exactly the music that he wanted to make.

Whatever the causes, it's clear to me that he found a new and different peak when he was 33-34, which is very atypical. Yes, I like early Tom Waits, but there's no comparison to the stuff after Brennan. You get the feeling that he really took charge: Monk, Mingus, sentimental parlor music from 1890, music from Eastern and Central Europe, gamelan music, talking drums, delta blues, church music from the 1850s, the Weimar Republic. None of these was there before Brennan.