Musical betrayals

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Quaco
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Musical betrayals

Postby Quaco » 04 Aug 2017, 21:09

Steve Marriott leaving the Small Faces to form Humble Pie.

Mick Ralphs leaving Mott the Hoople just as they were getting good in order to form Bad Company.

Unfortunate changes in direction or loss of magic of your favorite artists: Let's Dance, Muswell Hillbillies, Atlantic Crossing, and so on.

Which ones still bug you? Which ones did you recover from and/or start to see the artist's point?
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby bobzilla77 » 04 Aug 2017, 21:16

It was interesting to me to see Bill Bruford abandon almost every group he was in just as they started to become popular.

Leaving Yes right on the verge of their breakthrough is the biggest example but, he also comes into and leaves Genesis right as they are going into arenas, he leaves UK before their second album when they're getting pretty big... I don't fault him artistically for any of it, but it does make me wonder what was going on in his mind. Clearly he was more comfortable out on the edge, trying to build something, than serving in something already built. Not big on victory laps. (I guess he take one with Yes on the Union tour, much later.)

I remember listening to an interview with him where he was talking about this phenomenon, and one of my friends said "What an asshole!"
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby bobzilla77 » 04 Aug 2017, 21:18

"The crow cries uncover the cornfield? What does that even mean? Stick with the formula, Brian."
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Moleskin » 04 Aug 2017, 21:22

bobzilla77 wrote:It was interesting to me to see Bill Bruford abandon almost every group he was in just as they started to become popular.

Leaving Yes right on the verge of their breakthrough is the biggest example but, he also comes into and leaves Genesis right as they are going into arenas, he leaves UK before their second album when they're getting pretty big... I don't fault him artistically for any of it, but it does make me wonder what was going on in his mind. Clearly he was more comfortable out on the edge, trying to build something, than serving in something already built. Not big on victory laps. (I guess he take one with Yes on the Union tour, much later.)

I remember listening to an interview with him where he was talking about this phenomenon, and one of my friends said "What an asshole!"


He stuck with Crimson for a long while.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Moleskin » 04 Aug 2017, 21:23

Quaco wrote:Steve Marriott leaving the Small Faces to form Humble Pie.

Mick Ralphs leaving Mott the Hoople just as they were getting good in order to form Bad Company.

Unfortunate changes in direction or loss of magic of your favorite artists: Let's Dance, Muswell Hillbillies, Atlantic Crossing, and so on.

Which ones still bug you? Which ones did you recover from and/or start to see the artist's point?


You're not having Muswell Hilbillies. That's one of my favourite Kinks albums! It's the string of mid-70s concept records that followed it for me.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Moleskin » 04 Aug 2017, 21:27

Not popular round here at all, but Ultravox working with George Martin on Quartet after the much more chewy and satisfying Rage In Eden. They didn't get that edge back.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Jeemo » 04 Aug 2017, 22:07

bobzilla77 wrote:It was interesting to me to see Bill Bruford abandon almost every group he was in just as they started to become popular.

Leaving Yes right on the verge of their breakthrough is the biggest example but, he also comes into and leaves Genesis right as they are going into arenas, he leaves UK before their second album when they're getting pretty big... I don't fault him artistically for any of it, but it does make me wonder what was going on in his mind. Clearly he was more comfortable out on the edge, trying to build something, than serving in something already built. Not big on victory laps. (I guess he take one with Yes on the Union tour, much later.)

I remember listening to an interview with him where he was talking about this phenomenon, and one of my friends said "What an asshole!"



He was a gun for hire with Genesis, rather than a full member. Probably on a retainer rather than a share of the tour profits
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Hightea » 04 Aug 2017, 22:13

bobzilla77 wrote:It was interesting to me to see Bill Bruford abandon almost every group he was in just as they started to become popular.

he leaves UK before their second album when they're getting pretty big...


He left UK because he brought in Alan Holdsworth and after the first album Jobson and Wetton fired Holdsworth so Bruford left too.

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Hugh » 04 Aug 2017, 22:16

Jeemo wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote:It was interesting to me to see Bill Bruford abandon almost every group he was in just as they started to become popular.

Leaving Yes right on the verge of their breakthrough is the biggest example but, he also comes into and leaves Genesis right as they are going into arenas, he leaves UK before their second album when they're getting pretty big... I don't fault him artistically for any of it, but it does make me wonder what was going on in his mind. Clearly he was more comfortable out on the edge, trying to build something, than serving in something already built. Not big on victory laps. (I guess he take one with Yes on the Union tour, much later.)

I remember listening to an interview with him where he was talking about this phenomenon, and one of my friends said "What an asshole!"



He was a gun for hire with Genesis, rather than a full member. Probably on a retainer rather than a share of the tour profits



And the lack of any opportunity to stretch out musically within Genesis' songs probably bored him shitless.

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby R. Swipe » 04 Aug 2017, 22:20

Moleskin wrote:
Quaco wrote:Steve Marriott leaving the Small Faces to form Humble Pie.

Mick Ralphs leaving Mott the Hoople just as they were getting good in order to form Bad Company.

Unfortunate changes in direction or loss of magic of your favorite artists: Let's Dance, Muswell Hillbillies, Atlantic Crossing, and so on.

Which ones still bug you? Which ones did you recover from and/or start to see the artist's point?


You're not having Muswell Hilbillies. That's one of my favourite Kinks albums! It's the string of mid-70s concept records that followed it for me.


Ah, just as I was going to say how much of a disappointment it was!

I can't really say any more than that really. Not even sure what's so weak about it. But there's nothing there I like - and the two previous albums are stuffed with great tunes.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Snarfyguy » 04 Aug 2017, 22:36

Moleskin wrote:
bobzilla77 wrote:It was interesting to me to see Bill Bruford abandon almost every group he was in just as they started to become popular.

Leaving Yes right on the verge of their breakthrough is the biggest example but, he also comes into and leaves Genesis right as they are going into arenas, he leaves UK before their second album when they're getting pretty big... I don't fault him artistically for any of it, but it does make me wonder what was going on in his mind. Clearly he was more comfortable out on the edge, trying to build something, than serving in something already built. Not big on victory laps. (I guess he take one with Yes on the Union tour, much later.)

I remember listening to an interview with him where he was talking about this phenomenon, and one of my friends said "What an asshole!"


He stuck with Crimson for a long while.

1972-74 and 1981-84, yeah, that's sort of a while.

Has anyone here read his memoir? I can't recommend it; it really made me dislike him!

To answer the question: Lou Reed, who betrayed his talent, which is worse, even, than betraying your bandmates or your fans.
Last edited by Snarfyguy on 04 Aug 2017, 22:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Bent Fabric » 04 Aug 2017, 22:44

It could be argued that Neil Young was the ultimate "Later, bitches!" artist (Springfield, CSNY, Stills/Young, repeatedly going off to do one thing or another while some other personnel were sitting around waiting for airplane tickets).

Some would fault him for it.

I certainly wouldn't.

I think there is some legitimacy to the theory (certainly my belief) that he was always going towards a thing moreso than fleeing another (though, certainly the latter was often a justifiable decision). "Serving the muse", if you will (I typed those three words without puking). There's a hell of a lot of static and politics in bands at any level of success, and...I think, truth be told, many artists would look back and consider that they perhaps should have fled "diminishing returns/more habit than fruitful organic peak of chemistry" scenarios somewhat earlier in the agonizing and ongoing decline.

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Matt Wilson » 04 Aug 2017, 22:48

Moleskin wrote:
Quaco wrote:Steve Marriott leaving the Small Faces to form Humble Pie.

Mick Ralphs leaving Mott the Hoople just as they were getting good in order to form Bad Company.

Unfortunate changes in direction or loss of magic of your favorite artists: Let's Dance, Muswell Hillbillies, Atlantic Crossing, and so on.

Which ones still bug you? Which ones did you recover from and/or start to see the artist's point?


You're not having Muswell Hilbillies. That's one of my favourite Kinks albums! It's the string of mid-70s concept records that followed it for me.


It's a great album, perhaps the last fully realized LP they would make.

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby The Modernist » 04 Aug 2017, 22:59

Snarfyguy wrote:
To answer the question: Lou Reed, who betrayed his talent, which is worse, even, than betraying your bandmates or your fans.



Or maybe his talent didn't stretch that far?

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Quaco » 04 Aug 2017, 23:01

Dr. B. Eef wrote:
Moleskin wrote:
Quaco wrote:Steve Marriott leaving the Small Faces to form Humble Pie.

Mick Ralphs leaving Mott the Hoople just as they were getting good in order to form Bad Company.

Unfortunate changes in direction or loss of magic of your favorite artists: Let's Dance, Muswell Hillbillies, Atlantic Crossing, and so on.

Which ones still bug you? Which ones did you recover from and/or start to see the artist's point?


You're not having Muswell Hilbillies. That's one of my favourite Kinks albums! It's the string of mid-70s concept records that followed it for me.


Ah, just as I was going to say how much of a disappointment it was!

I can't really say any more than that really. Not even sure what's so weak about it. But there's nothing there I like - and the two previous albums are stuffed with great tunes.

I find it alright but it just seems beneath him/them. Davies is really tackling fairly mundane ideas here: the ubiquity of tea in England, dieting, alcohol, the man taking away his house, and dissatisfaction with modern society. (Almost Brian Wilson levels of insularity here.) Naturally, Davies does some interesting things with them, but not many IMO, and I'm not sure they hadn't been dealt with conclusively already on 'Sunny Afternoon', 'Get Back in the Line' and a couple others.

Not to take anything away from your love of it, Moley. I listened to it today and enjoyed it -- but it was the inspiration for the thread.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Quaco » 04 Aug 2017, 23:04

The Modernist wrote:
Snarfyguy wrote:
To answer the question: Lou Reed, who betrayed his talent, which is worse, even, than betraying your bandmates or your fans.



Or maybe his talent didn't stretch that far?

A lot of artists were better when more under the influence of the music of the time -- whether reacting positively or negatively -- rather than when they believed their own hype and indulged their every artistic impulse (Lou Reed, Pink Floyd, etc.).
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Bent Fabric » 04 Aug 2017, 23:13

Quaco wrote:A lot of artists were better when more under the influence of the music of the time -- whether reacting positively or negatively -- rather than when they believed their own hype and indulged their every artistic impulse (Lou Reed, Pink Floyd, etc.).


Very very true.

I also accept the sort of "limited resource" element of a finite span of greatness.

With some people, I wish there were more of "the magic", but - at the end of the day - I'm probably just thankful that they did great things in ANY quantity.

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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Quaco » 04 Aug 2017, 23:20

Yes, a couple great albums ... that's actually pretty good, and I'm quite happy with that nowadays. The idea of an artist betraying you is basically something you feel when you have an intense connection with an artist and it hurts that there isn't more of what you like. I've often wished for 'one more album' in the sweet spot of an artist. But I am fine with what I've got because there's so much music anyway.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby R. Swipe » 04 Aug 2017, 23:31

I suppose I could say I felt betrayed by Beefheart's later stuff. Or I would have, if I'd grown up with him and those last couple of albums had come out when I was a record-buying adult.

The brilliance and originality of Trout Mask Replica had been replaced by a sort of awkward and ugly New Wave brew. And TMR was never ugly.
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Re: Musical betrayals

Postby Sneelock » 04 Aug 2017, 23:40

HA!! I think the last three are as good as anything he ever did.
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