Crimso v The Softs

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Well...?

Crimso
13
59%
The Softs
9
41%
 
Total votes: 22

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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby zoomboogity » 29 Apr 2017, 22:48

From what I've seen and heard, both in person and on youtube, I prefer Soft Machine's studio recordings and King Crimson's live performances.

If you include various offshoots into the equation - in this case, Allen, Ayers and Wyatt - Soft Machine appears to win by a mile, but then Fripp & Eno's 1975 Paris concert alone makes it a tossup.
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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby algroth » 30 Apr 2017, 00:11

joels344 wrote:This is an interesting one, so I have to break it down by making some album/career comparisons.

Soft Machine had the strongest run of consecutive albums i.e., The Soft Machine, Volume Two, and Third. I consider all of these albums classics in the progressive genre. Each album presented sonic growth, evolution and signs of maturity as a group. However, after this brilliant run, the band descends into wanky, jazz-rock territory too much for my interest. Charlie O was correct in saying that Post-Third Softs did not deserve the musical mind of Robert Wyatt. They just became another 70's jazz-rock/fusion band and never really grew any after Fourth.

On the other hand, King Crimson were a band that had an incredibly strong run from 1969-1981. Outside of a few duds, namely, Islands and Starless and Bible Black, they were consistently releasing brilliant and innovative material. They also released some absolute masterpieces like In the Court of the Crimson King, Red and Larks' Tongues in Aspic. Those albums are arguably superior to any Soft Machine release. Post-Discipline King Crimson is even more redeemable than Post-Third Soft Machine, insofar as them branching out and experimenting with different ideas. The only late-Crimso album I consider remotely interesting and listenable is The Power to Believe. Though both eras represent the weakest aspects of their respective careers.

So, I'm going with King Crimson here.


Agreed with all of this. Yes, including the thoughts on Islands and Starless and Bible Black.

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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby C. » 30 Apr 2017, 00:23

Some utter nonsense (imo) has been posted on this thread

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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby Charlie O. » 30 Apr 2017, 01:27

I am surprised that anyone who likes Lark's Tongues and Red would consider Starless a dud. I think it's actually the strongest of the three on balance!
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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby Hightea » 30 Apr 2017, 02:53

joels344 wrote:
However, after this brilliant run, the band descends into wanky, jazz-rock territory too much for my interest. Charlie O was correct in saying that Post-Third Softs did not deserve the musical mind of Robert Wyatt. They just became another 70's jazz-rock/fusion band and never really grew any after Fourth.

Post-Discipline King Crimson is even more redeemable than Post-Third Soft Machine, insofar as them branching out and experimenting with different ideas. The only late-Crimso album I consider remotely interesting and listenable is The Power to Believe. Though both eras represent the weakest aspects of their respective careers.



I get the not into jazz fusion soft machine but in my eyes they did the same thing as Crimson in that they branched out changed line ups. Problem is they were uneven after third. The joke was only buy the odd number albums. :lol: Then Bundles came out and broke the mold.

In regard to post Discipline King Crimson I loved the live performances of the albums. KC didn't tour much but when they did they were always a must catch. Not a big fan of The Power to Believe but the live performance at Town Hall that tour was amazing.

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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby soundchaser » 30 Apr 2017, 10:41

An easy win for King Crimson, for me. I'd put Soft Machine 2 up there with any Crimson album, but bar Moon In June on Third, they lost me after that. The first Soft Machine plays well with In The Court Of The Crimson King, but that great run of Crimson albums up to Red can't really be beaten.

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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby Dr. E. PLATE » 30 Apr 2017, 11:12

I've never really understood the across-the-board love for KC's debut album. The cover is amazing but stuff like '21st Century Schizoid Man' is just terrible, sputtering on and on and on, even worse than Black Sabbath. At least they didn't try to 'fuse' classical music and rock.

I'm reminded of what Baron said about the talentless often making the best music. Or what Mark E Smith often says about keeping the middle classes out of rock.

I just found this on Wiki - Fripp 'explaning' his solo:

The basis of the picking technique is to strike down on the on-beat and up on the off-beat. Then one must learn to reverse that. I'll generally use a downstroke on the down-beat except where I wish to accent a phrase in a particular way or create a certain kind of tension by confusing accents, in which case I might begin a run on the upstroke

'one'! what an utter cunt that man is. It's a fucking solo for Christ's sake man you tiresome old cock.



The Softs were wonderful for a short period - those early singles are almost as wildly inventive as Syd's stuff with The Pink Floyd. I like the first album too, but the second is such a mess. But whenever Wyatt's singing you've got something special. Even those dated electronic things he did with Ultramarine in the 90s have charm.

Clearly a win for SM.
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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby C » 30 Apr 2017, 12:03

Charlie O. wrote:I am surprised that anyone who likes Lark's Tongues and Red would consider Starless a dud. I think it's actually the strongest of the three on balance!


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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby yomptepi » 30 Apr 2017, 12:34

Hugh wrote:Islands is top 5 Crimson for me.


Absolutely. Top 3 for me.
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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby yomptepi » 30 Apr 2017, 12:40

I like the soft Machine well enough. I find the first two albums irritating in the same way I find early Pink Floyd, and bits of Gong irritating. But once Wyatt leaves, there is a real improvement. I think my favourite might be 7. I also like the two matching Mole albums, but I have no time for the trite warblings of Wyatts solo career. dreadful nonsense.

King Crimson were absolutely unstoppable up to Red. I consider that run of albums almost perfect. Love them all. And they were never twee or in jokey. I don't think that stuff works well on record.

So an easy win for King Crimson.
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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby The Slider » 30 Apr 2017, 13:19

yomptepi wrote:I have no time for the trite warblings of Wyatts solo career. dreadful nonsense.


The main trouble is that they just sound so honky.
Thin and brittle and harsh. Worst keyboard sounds this side of Rick Wakeman too.
The music would be good if it were better recorded and played on better sounding instruments.

I'm also not a huge fan of Wyatt's vocal stylings. He puts plenty into it he has an unlovely tone - a bit thin, reedy and wavery - and his accent gets up my nose after a while.
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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby ConnyOlivetti » 30 Apr 2017, 13:22

From time to time, yompyslider surprice me big time!
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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby The Slider » 30 Apr 2017, 13:23

I want to like them more than I actually do.
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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby Dr. E. PLATE » 30 Apr 2017, 13:25

GoogaMooga wrote:i am steeped in music history, my friend

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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby C. » 30 Apr 2017, 23:27

KC"s best album for me is LTIA. I'm not sure what The Soft's best album is.

The most overrated KC album is Red. The Soft's most overrated albums are 1 & 2.

Just my opinion though.






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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby zoomboogity » 01 May 2017, 18:21

Hightea wrote:I get the not into jazz fusion soft machine but in my eyes they did the same thing as Crimson in that they branched out changed line ups. Problem is they were uneven after third. The joke was only buy the odd number albums. :lol:


And Six, if only for The Soft Weed Factor.

Breef wrote:I just found this on Wiki - Fripp 'explaning' his solo:

The basis of the picking technique is to strike down on the on-beat and up on the off-beat. Then one must learn to reverse that. I'll generally use a downstroke on the down-beat except where I wish to accent a phrase in a particular way or create a certain kind of tension by confusing accents, in which case I might begin a run on the upstroke

'one'! what an utter cunt that man is. It's a fucking solo for Christ's sake man you tiresome old cock.


:lol: For a while I thought I was alone here on this! "You thought you were here for FUN? Put those doobies out, kids, you've got HOMEWORK to do!" Talk about shut up and play yer guitar. I think we have the new internet meme: FRIPPSPLAINING!

Credit where due, though: KC at the LA Greek Theatre in 1982 is a memory permanently implanted into my brain. As good as music gets, and then some.

Breef wrote:The Softs were wonderful for a short period - those early singles are almost as wildly inventive as Syd's stuff with The Pink Floyd. I like the first album too, but the second is such a mess. But whenever Wyatt's singing you've got something special. Even those dated electronic things he did with Ultramarine in the 90s have charm.


What a great way to open your first album! I still get the same rush as I did the first time I heard it... 35 years ago? That's a rare thing indeed.



Ultramarine recorded a Kevin Ayers song, joined by Kevin and Lol Coxhill:



C. wrote:The Soft's most overrated albums are 1 & 2.


Ermmmm...

C. wrote:Some utter nonsense (imo) has been posted on this thread


:D

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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby Quaco » 01 May 2017, 20:20

Breef wrote:The Softs were wonderful for a short period - those early singles are almost as wildly inventive as Syd's stuff with The Pink Floyd.

Which singles are you talking about? "Love Makes Sweet Music" is wildly inventive? You're just making up a history for them so you can make your point!
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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby Dr. E. PLATE » 01 May 2017, 20:24

Quaco wrote:
Breef wrote:The Softs were wonderful for a short period - those early singles are almost as wildly inventive as Syd's stuff with The Pink Floyd.

Which singles are you talking about? "Love Makes Sweet Music" is wildly inventive? You're just making up a history for them so you can make your point!


That one, and (especially) 'Feelin' Reelin' Squeelin'', which is nuts!

That's all, tho'. I was exaggerating the number of singles but not the quality... :)
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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby bobzilla77 » 01 May 2017, 20:34

I've tried with Soft Machine, it just doesn't seem to do it for me. Maybe it's one of those bands I'm saving for my old age - something I can get into discovering when I'm seventy. I do LIKE and RESPECT them and the musicianship is clearly top notch, but I rarely feel like, "that's what I want to listen to right now".

I listen to Crimson all the time & consider them a life-changing musical force.
The basis of the picking technique is to strike down on the on-beat and up on the off-beat. Then one must learn to reverse that. I'll generally use a downstroke on the down-beat except where I wish to accent a phrase in a particular way or create a certain kind of tension by confusing accents, in which case I might begin a run on the upstroke

'one'! what an utter cunt that man is. It's a fucking solo for Christ's sake man you tiresome old cock.


If you don't play guitar and don't think technique is worth talking about, why are you reading technical explanations by guitar players? Do you go to the pilot on a plane and say "you think you're so cool with your dials, and meters, and nibnobs, all that blink blink and beep beep beep, just fucking fly the stupid cunting thing you moron?"
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Re: Crimso v The Softs

Postby Dr. E. PLATE » 01 May 2017, 20:40

It wasn't something I sought out, it was something I came across on (I think) Wikipedia.

Christ, you're all hard work today! Is it a holiday over there too?
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