BCB 130 - Joy Division

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Bent Fabric
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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby Bent Fabric » 25 Aug 2014, 01:47

HELL of a write up.

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The Modernist
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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby The Modernist » 25 Aug 2014, 10:47

take5_d_shorterer wrote:
The G Experience! wrote:
I can't hear any American accent in his vocals.



1. What accent do you hear in Ian Curtis's vocals?

2. What accent do you hear in Bernard Sumner's vocals?


1. He sounds vaguely British, but I don't hear any regional accent as such.

2 Sumner's Manchester accent is very discernible on most of the songs.

When I first heard Curtis, his vocal reminded me of Bowie circa Heroes. I think also Iggy Pop would have been another big influence.

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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby the masked man » 25 Aug 2014, 10:56

I think Curtis' voice is, if anything, transatlantic. There are some American vowel sounds (no doubt inspired by his love of Morrison and Iggy, as already stated) but he still sounds more English than American to me. Certainly, his singing voice was very different from his speaking voice, whereas, as Moddie says, Sumner sings in his natural accent, more or less.

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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 25 Aug 2014, 11:13

the masked man wrote:I think Curtis' voice is, if anything, transatlantic. There are some American vowel sounds (no doubt inspired by his love of Morrison and Iggy, as already stated) but he still sounds more English than American to me. Certainly, his singing voice was very different from his speaking voice, whereas, as Moddie says, Sumner sings in his natural accent, more or less.


Good comment.

I guess the Bowie comment also is valid. Singers choosing expressly a lower register, with something of a 'hollowness' in it (not meant in any derogatory sense). Because it fits their feelings and purposes.
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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby The Modernist » 25 Aug 2014, 11:18

Singing in that low register definitely came in vogue around 79 -you can add Oakey and MacCulloch here as well. Later, of course, it became associated with goth.

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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 25 Aug 2014, 11:24

The G Experience! wrote:Singing in that low register definitely came in vogue around 79 -you can add Oakey and MacCulloch here as well. Later, of course, it became associated with goth.


Good addition.
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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby jimboo » 25 Aug 2014, 14:07

take5_d_shorterer wrote:
The G Experience! wrote:
I can't hear any American accent in his vocals.



1. What accent do you hear in Ian Curtis's vocals?

2. What accent do you hear in Bernard Sumner's vocals?



Sumner sings in his natural accent. Curtis ? I don't hear any American twang to the delivery at all. The fact that you asked made me listen even more last night when playing UP and Closer. I have to conclude that it sounds very British no emphasis on the regional dialect a la Fall or Mondays fer instance.

Last night was enjoyable re-visiting the two albums and the sheer power was a joy to listen to. UP sounded better Shadowplay just sounded so gutsy and the guitar work was better than memory would have had me believe. New Dawn emerges from the darkness and holds you in check as your body arches before the tension is released and you fall slowly as the songs fades. Memory was correct in that Disorder and Day of the lords are just the most perfect statement of intent of the whole decade. I have always thought that dead souls on the album would have been the cherry on top (not that it really needs one).

Closer (ah the drumming) is majesty and power. As stated the second side really is a tour de force on an epic scale. On other days it would eclipse the debut but tonight the guitars made the difference. Closer did away with the electric 'rubber band' bass that appears on UP and the bass/drum drives the huge shards of emotion running through the sound of closer. Remarkable albums and a milestone in the grand scheme of things.
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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 25 Aug 2014, 14:18

Wonderful comment, Jimboo.
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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 25 Aug 2014, 15:14

I need some enlightenment about this:

(Of course I can find the track listing everywhere, but is it worthwhile, and how is the listening experience in general? Does it feature not to be missed rarities?)

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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby Deebank » 25 Aug 2014, 16:08

Goddamn!

I haven't heard this version (the RCA album version) of No Love Lost since Copehead's bootleg tape got chewed by my mate Marie's tape machine at her 18th Birthday in the backroom of The Aukland pub in Menai Bridge :)

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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby copehead » 25 Aug 2014, 16:46

Sea Of Tunes v2.0 wrote:I need some enlightenment about this:

(Of course I can find the track listing everywhere, but is it worthwhile, and how is the listening experience in general? Does it feature not to be missed rarities?)

Image


If you like Joy Division it is absolutely essential.

It includes everything they ever recorded often in mixes not released previously and it has some amazing live recordings that they must have been sitting on for years

Although it is easy to be a completist with JD

This the albums and the Warsaw CD is the complete lot really, you are probably only missing teh RCA recordings.
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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby copehead » 25 Aug 2014, 16:47

Deebank wrote:Goddamn!

I haven't heard this version (the RCA album version) of No Love Lost since Copehead's bootleg tape got chewed by my mate Marie's tape machine at her 18th Birthday in the backroom of The Aukland pub in Menai Bridge ]


:x x 32 years and waiting
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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 25 Aug 2014, 17:21

Thanks for your comment on the box set, Copey.
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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby take5_d_shorterer » 25 Aug 2014, 17:42

the masked man wrote:I think Curtis' voice is, if anything, transatlantic.

The transatlantic or Mid-Atlantic accent to me is something like William F. Buckley.


Woody Allen and William F. Buckley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNErWi_lTig

In other words, posh and patrician. I can't hear the transatlantic accent when Curtis sings.


There are some American vowel sounds (no doubt inspired by his love of Morrison and Iggy, as already stated) but he still sounds more English than American to me.


While there are differences for me between Curtis and, let's say, the following,


Iggy Pop, The Passenger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLhN__oEHaw

(for example, Iggy Pop uses vibrato; Curtis doesn't, and the tone is different), Curtis sounds closer to somebody like Iggy Pop than than anyone I can think of who sings with a British accent.

Here's an example of what I mean.


Joy Division, Heart and Soul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk2KC8Ut3is

The chorus is "Heart and soul, one will burn."

The "r" in "burn" is a hard "r" that I associate with American English and maybe more with the West Coast. (e.g., Surrr-fing USA, not Suh-fing USA).

Yes, you can find examples of British English, for example in Warwickshire, with a hard "r", but Curtis doesn't sing with a Warwickshire accent.

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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby jimboo » 25 Aug 2014, 17:48

Well, Americans would sing heart 'n' soul wouldn't they?
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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby clive gash » 25 Aug 2014, 18:05

take5_d_shorterer wrote:
the masked man wrote:I think Curtis' voice is, if anything, transatlantic.

The transatlantic or Mid-Atlantic accent to me is something like William F. Buckley.


Woody Allen and William F. Buckley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNErWi_lTig

In other words, posh and patrician. I can't hear the transatlantic accent when Curtis sings.


There are some American vowel sounds (no doubt inspired by his love of Morrison and Iggy, as already stated) but he still sounds more English than American to me.


While there are differences for me between Curtis and, let's say, the following,


Iggy Pop, The Passenger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLhN__oEHaw

(for example, Iggy Pop uses vibrato; Curtis doesn't, and the tone is different), Curtis sounds closer to somebody like Iggy Pop than than anyone I can think of who sings with a British accent.

Here's an example of what I mean.


Joy Division, Heart and Soul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk2KC8Ut3is

The chorus is "Heart and soul, one will burn."

The "r" in "burn" is a hard "r" that I associate with American English and maybe more with the West Coast. (e.g., Surrr-fing USA, not Suh-fing USA).

Yes, you can find examples of British English, for example in Warwickshire, with a hard "r", but Curtis doesn't sing with a Warwickshire accent.




Peter Kay is from Bolton, Greater Manchester - about 15 miles from where Curtis was born. Listen to the way he pronounces his 'r's when he says "Lard".
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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby take5_d_shorterer » 25 Aug 2014, 19:11

clive gash wrote:


Peter Kay is from Bolton, Greater Manchester - about 15 miles from where Curtis was born. Listen to the way he pronounces his 'r's when he says "Lard".


Interesting example. The hard "r" sometimes occurs and sometimes does not. For example, "pens and paper" (see 0:04) with the last word sounding like "PAY-puh".

There are certainly examples of British English with the hard "r" just as there are examples of American English without the hard "r" (e.g., Boston) so a more complete look at that would have to focus on other phonemes.

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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby clive gash » 25 Aug 2014, 19:14

Let's not.
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...a multitude of innuendo and hearsay...

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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby The Modernist » 28 Aug 2014, 13:30

Goat Boy wrote:I've slagged them off on here before but at their best they were great and they have some wonderful songs but they are not a band I listen to very often these days and I find their world, as self contained and impressive as it is, narrow and a bit boring.


I can understand that. I think it's very easy to forget with JD that they a young band very much shaped by the musical context of the time. They did well to develop such a singular sound of their own, even if that sound might now be seen as a bit monochrome. I think they would've really broken out on the third album, but sadly we never got to know what it would have been like. I guess ''Movement' offers some clues, but the circumstances of making that were so overbearing that it's not really that helpful in speculating what a third album would have been like.

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Re: BCB 130 - Joy Division

Postby Guy E » 28 Aug 2014, 14:44

Terrific opening post.

Joy Division fans were like a private club here in the US - Import Only. I don't remember who tipped me to them, but I was blown away upon first listen. And like every visually-oriented fan the cover of Unknown Pleasures was an instant classic. I reviewed Transmission during my short misadventure as a rockcrit with the New York Rocker and I played their records frequently when deejaying at Maxwell's.

But my abiding memory is hearing of Ian Curtis' suicide less that 24-hours after the fact. Word got around very quickly by telephone in those pre-Internet days. I felt crushed by the news. I had tickets for their show at Hurrah's a day or two later and I believe they were also going to play Maxwell's, but that show isn't listed on the tour itinerary I've seen.

I've returned to their music in the past couple of years and like most of us here I tend to favor the singles and Closer over the debut album. But wow, what a debut.
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