Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israel

[Foxhound]

It seems a bit weird - he is otherwise sound politically, unlike the other rock star fox-botherer Brian Ferry....

Fox botherer? Now that's different. I thought you were mostly sheep botherers in your neck of the woods.

...class traitor lickspittle tory pin up boy.

Well that's another of the long list of things we Canadians have over you Brits. We never think in terms of "class". Well perhaps the occasional transplanted dyed-in-the-wool Brit here in the Great White North still thinks that way, but the rest of us regard them as being rather "eccentric", to put it very kindly.

[Snarfyguy]

BTW Snarfyguy, how's your old dance partner Rich from Classicrockforums doing? I noticed you came over here to find some like minded individuals shortly after he was banned.

Sorry, I can't remember who that is anymore.

He's one of the fellows with whom you participated in those interminable Democrat versus Republican arguments.

Well that sounds like a waste of time!

I hope I won.

[Foxhound]

Sorry. I can't remember all the torrid details. Whatever the topic they all swiftly devolved to whether Bill Clinton had set a better example for America's youth or whether George Bush was now teaching the islamists (or was it the Chinese? Koreans? Albigensians?) a better lesson. Though neither was a teacher by trade. Monica Lewinsky was somehow involved, and so were Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden in some kind of unholy menage à trois.

That's all I can remember though. It was years ago. You might ask Hepcat. He follows these things more closely. He says he's a Libertarian but most people just label him a subversive and stay well clear.

[Geezee]

And now the battle goes from the Stones to Radiohead to Nick Cave...

https://pitchfork.com/news/brian-eno-ro ... l_facebook

I articulated what I generally felt about this on the Radiohead thread (http://www.bcb-board.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=134457). I have to say it does make me think of their music differently - both Radiohead's and Nick Cave's, all the more so because they have both obviously thought about it a great deal, and Cave going so far as to say that he is doing this deliberately to spite the BDS movement. I certainly don't see this as any form of censorship - it's quite a ridiculous thing to say. Also quite interesting as I believe Nick Cave and Thurston Moore are quite good friends (they've certainly collaborated here and there and have alot of connections) and are at polar opposites on this one.

[Insouciant Western People]

I've been really heartened to see Cave and Radiohead stand by their principles on this, good for them.

[Moleskin]

I've been really heartened to see Cave and Radiohead stand by their principles on this, good for them.

Just like Queen in the 80s, money trumps morality.

[OUTPLAY]

Why is it immoral to play Israel in 2017?

[Jimbly]

I've been really heartened to see Cave and Radiohead stand by their principles on this, good for them.

seems like Cave is going because he was asked not to

[Moleskin]

Why is it immoral to play Israel in 2017?

Same reason it was immoral to play Sun City in the 80s.

[OUTPLAY]

indirectly funding a hateful regime?

I’m not convinced. But Cave doesn’t make a whole lot of sense either

[Insouciant Western People]

Why is it immoral to play Israel in 2017?

Same reason it was immoral to play Sun City in the 80s.

It isn't. There's no reasonable parallel to be drawn between the two, much as the proponents of BDS would like there to be.

[Insouciant Western People]

I've been really heartened to see Cave and Radiohead stand by their principles on this, good for them.

Just like Queen in the 80s, money trumps morality.

Why do you assume The Bad Seeds played there for the money?

It seems clear to me that Cave wanted to go on a point of principle.

[Moleskin]

I've been really heartened to see Cave and Radiohead stand by their principles on this, good for them.

Just like Queen in the 80s, money trumps morality.

Why do you assume The Bad Seeds played there for the money?

It seems clear to me that Cave wanted to go on a point of principle.

Yes. The principle of money being more important than morality.

[Moleskin]

Why is it immoral to play Israel in 2017?

Same reason it was immoral to play Sun City in the 80s.

It isn't. There's no reasonable parallel to be drawn between the two, much as the proponents of BDS would like there to be.

The parallel isn't exact but it doesn't need to be. Israel is effectively an apartheid state and responsible since 1948 for ethnic cleansing on a grand scale. But I know you are an apologist for this racism.

[Insouciant Western People]

Yes. The principle of money being more important than morality.

Does Nick Cave strike you as a man who's spent his career chasing big bucks?

[Goat Boy]

indirectly funding a hateful regime?

I’m not convinced. But Cave doesn’t make a whole lot of sense either

I think he has a point but he doesn’t express it with enough clarity. I don’t think Waters approach does the BDS any favours here. It’s symptomatic of a kind of public shaming you increasingly see in relation to perceived transgressions like this. I understand it’s a highly emotive issue but statements like:

We hurl our glasses into the fire of your arrogant unconcern, and smash our bracelets on the rock of your implacable indifference.

Are adolescent and silly. And then he ends it by saying:

Nick, the moment came and went brother, you missed it, if at some point in the future you want to climb out of the dark, all you have to do is open your eyes, we, in BDS will be here to welcome you into the light.
Love
Roger Waters and Co.

If that patronising, judgemental statement was directed towards me I think I’d be tempted to tell him to “fuck off” on principle frankly. If you want people to come over to your side then I don’t think trying to embarrass and shame them is necessarily the best approach, you know?

[Deebank]

I've been really heartened to see Cave and Radiohead stand by their principles on this, good for them.

Their principles?

I don't know about Cave but I seem to remember Thom Yorke leading the charge against China's occupation of Tibet, or did I imagine that?

Israel's occupation of Palestine is different how exactly?

[Insouciant Western People]

But I know you are an apologist for this racism.

[Insouciant Western People]

I've been really heartened to see Cave and Radiohead stand by their principles on this, good for them.

Their principles?

I don't know about Cave but I seem to remember Thom Yorke leading the charge against China's occupation of Tibet, or did I imagine that?

Israel's occupation of Palestine is different how exactly?

First, what do you mean by Palestine?

[OUTPLAY]

indirectly funding a hateful regime?

I’m not convinced. But Cave doesn’t make a whole lot of sense either

I think he has a point but he doesn’t express it with enough clarity. I don’t think Waters approach does the BDS any favours here. It’s symptomatic of a kind of public shaming you increasingly see in relation to perceived transgressions like this. I understand it’s a highly emotive issue but statements like:

We hurl our glasses into the fire of your arrogant unconcern, and smash our bracelets on the rock of your implacable indifference.

Are adolescent and silly. And then he ends it by saying:

Nick, the moment came and went brother, you missed it, if at some point in the future you want to climb out of the dark, all you have to do is open your eyes, we, in BDS will be here to welcome you into the light.
Love
Roger Waters and Co.

If that patronising, judgemental statement was directed towards me I think I’d be tempted to tell him to “fuck off” on principle frankly. If you want people to come over to your side then I don’t think trying to embarrass and shame them is necessarily the best approach, you know?

Oh, without a doubt.