Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israel

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Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israel

Postby Jimbo » 05 May 2014, 02:54

With the recent news that the Rolling Stones will be playing their first-ever concert in Israel, and at what is a critical time in the global struggle for Palestinian freedom and equal rights, we, the two surviving founders of Pink Floyd, have united in support of Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS), a growing, nonviolent global human rights movement initiated by Palestinian civil society in 2005 to end Israel’s occupation, racial discrimination and denial of basic Palestinian rights.


http://www.salon.com/2014/05/01/pink_fl ... in_israel/

I'm more sympathetic to Israel than to the sad plight of the Palestinians so I'll counter by arguing the Stones, or Pink Floyd themselves, should boycott playing in any place or in the employ of a corporation with a poor human rights record. Are the US or the UK so sterling? Are their hands arguably cleaner than Israel's?

edit. Come to think of it, Floyd, the Stones, McCartney, et al would make a hell of a statement of they all said fuck you to the US, Israel and everywhere else there is injustice and played a big free concert in ... where? Ramallah or actually in Bangladesh?
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby 12stringbassist » 05 May 2014, 11:33

Wares and Mason wrote:With the recent news that the Rolling Stones will be playing their first-ever concert in Israel, and at what is a critical time in the global struggle for Palestinian freedom and equal rights, we, the two surviving founders of Pink Floyd, have united in support of Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS), a growing, nonviolent global human rights movement initiated by Palestinian civil society in 2005 to end Israel’s occupation, racial discrimination and denial of basic Palestinian rights.


Has Gilmour died while I wasn't looking?
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby St Jeemo the Humourless » 05 May 2014, 11:36

Gilmour wasn't a founder member
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby fire and fueryIre » 05 May 2014, 12:38

Jimbo wrote:
Come to think of it, Floyd, the Stones, McCartney, et al would make a hell of a statement of they all said fuck you to the US, Israel and everywhere else there is injustice and played a big free concert in ... where? Ramallah or actually in Bangladesh?





While never likely to happen would the majority of the locals know who they were or even bother to go if they did?
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby The Modernist » 05 May 2014, 12:45

Good for Pink Floyd.

Whilst Israel is often 'normalised' within mainstream perceptions for being a democracy and enjoying the considerable patronage of the west ..therefore superficially being seen as an ally, such boycotts help to remind people of why Israel is seen by many as a rogue state who has suppressed, in the most brutal fashion, the rights of Palestinians.

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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby 12stringbassist » 05 May 2014, 12:48

Jeemo wrote:Gilmour wasn't a founder member

I just didn't catch onto the word founder. Ooops.
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 05 May 2014, 12:54

The G Experience! wrote:Good for Pink Floyd.

Whilst Israel is often 'normalised' within mainstream perceptions for being a democracy and enjoying the considerable patronage of the west ..therefore superficially being seen as an ally, such boycotts help to remind people of why Israel is seen by many as a rogue state who has suppressed, in the most brutal fashion, the rights of Palestinians.


...my thoughts.

The West has great difficulties with ever berating Israël about its disproportial, cruel, and pathological forms of 'retaliation'. There is a deep tragedy at work here; and with the risk of touching upon highly sensitive issues: somehow Israël is convinced that it is more equal than other countries, because of the terrible drama that was the holocaust. It may well be possible that a significant part of this conviction resides in the collective unconscious of the Israëlis. One can add that 'Israël' does not equal 'Jews', however much the two are historically intertwined.

What justified the slaughter orgies that were Sabrah and Chatilah?

What justified the slaughter orgy that was 'Operation Cast Lead', three years ago? More then 1,400 citizens were killed, many of them with white phosphorus, burned alive, women, man, and children, unarmed.

Answer: nothing.

Well, and the near-deafening silence of other Western countries in these matters also amounted to nothing.
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby The Modernist » 05 May 2014, 12:59

Well said.

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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby Goat Boy » 05 May 2014, 13:01

I think Waters is a bit of a tool but at least he has principles. Nice one. I wish more artists would do the same.
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby Belle Lettre » 05 May 2014, 13:51

BDS is really starting to have an effect now. (Boycott, Divestment, Sanction)
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby never/ever » 05 May 2014, 15:50

Sea Of Tunes v2.0 wrote:
The G Experience! wrote:Good for Pink Floyd.

Whilst Israel is often 'normalised' within mainstream perceptions for being a democracy and enjoying the considerable patronage of the west ..therefore superficially being seen as an ally, such boycotts help to remind people of why Israel is seen by many as a rogue state who has suppressed, in the most brutal fashion, the rights of Palestinians.


...my thoughts.

The West has great difficulties with ever berating Israël about its disproportial, cruel, and pathological forms of 'retaliation'. There is a deep tragedy at work here; and with the risk of touching upon highly sensitive issues: somehow Israël is convinced that it is more equal than other countries, because of the terrible drama that was the holocaust. It may well be possible that a significant part of this conviction resides in the collective unconscious of the Israëlis. One can add that 'Israël' does not equal 'Jews', however much the two are historically intertwined.

What justified the slaughter orgies that were Sabrah and Chatilah?

What justified the slaughter orgy that was 'Operation Cast Lead', three years ago? More then 1,400 citizens were killed, many of them with white phosphorus, burned alive, women, man, and children, unarmed.

Answer: nothing.

Well, and the near-deafening silence of other Western countries in these matters also amounted to nothing.



I suppose the random bombings by Palestinians on Israeli citizens are justifiable in the eye of these horrors? The scum dancing there on the eve of the Twin Tower-bombings? No fucking way that they deserve a free-pass either.
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby Foxhound » 05 May 2014, 15:59

Fuck. You're all thinking like aging hippies and other assorted wimps. The Rolling Stones have made a career out of offending the straight-laced and I'd be surprised and disappointed if the Stones now deviated from the "Screw you" attitude in which they've gloried from the very start of their careers.

What old Keith should do in this situation is say "Screw you man, I like my money!" and set his dogs on any petitioning Pink Floyd member who dares to darken his doorway. Now that would draw both the headlines and the assault charges that we long time Stones fans so love! And of course they'd sell tens of thousands more concert tickets. As they say "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose".

:lol:
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby The Modernist » 05 May 2014, 16:02

Foxhound wrote:Fuck. You're all thinking like aging hippies and other assorted wimps. The Rolling Stones have made a career out of offending the straight-laced and I'd be surprised and disappointed if the Stones now deviated from the "Screw you" attitude in which they've gloried from the very start of their careers.

What old Keith should do in this situation is say "Screw you man, I like my money!" and set his dogs on any petitioning Pink Floyd member who dares to darken his doorway. Now that would draw both the headlines and the assault charges that we long time Stones fans so love! And of course they'd sell tens of thousands more concert tickets. As they say "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose".

:lol:


Can you explain your emoticon given that your post seems entirely humour free?

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Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israel

Postby Deebank » 05 May 2014, 16:03

Israel faces a huge and problematic crossroads.

With the two states idea rapidly dying it can either opt to be a true Western Democracy as it says it is with the same rights for all it's citizens or it can formalise and acknowledge the apartheid regime it has become.

The first path would mean the enfranchising of all Arab/Palestinian citizens and pretty soon Jews in the minority, while the second should see it rapidly becoming a real pariah state.

One way or another it looks like the idea of a Jewish state's days are numbered.

My hope is a swift and painless transition to the sort if democratic secular state many progressives on both sides hope for.

Haven't the Stones ruled out playing Israel?
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 05 May 2014, 16:18

never/ever wrote:
Sea Of Tunes v2.0 wrote:
The G Experience! wrote:Good for Pink Floyd.

Whilst Israel is often 'normalised' within mainstream perceptions for being a democracy and enjoying the considerable patronage of the west ..therefore superficially being seen as an ally, such boycotts help to remind people of why Israel is seen by many as a rogue state who has suppressed, in the most brutal fashion, the rights of Palestinians.


...my thoughts.

The West has great difficulties with ever berating Israël about its disproportial, cruel, and pathological forms of 'retaliation'. There is a deep tragedy at work here; and with the risk of touching upon highly sensitive issues: somehow Israël is convinced that it is more equal than other countries, because of the terrible drama that was the holocaust. It may well be possible that a significant part of this conviction resides in the collective unconscious of the Israëlis. One can add that 'Israël' does not equal 'Jews', however much the two are historically intertwined.

What justified the slaughter orgies that were Sabrah and Chatilah?

What justified the slaughter orgy that was 'Operation Cast Lead', three years ago? More then 1,400 citizens were killed, many of them with white phosphorus, burned alive, women, man, and children, unarmed.

Answer: nothing.

Well, and the near-deafening silence of other Western countries in these matters also amounted to nothing.



I suppose the random bombings by Palestinians on Israeli citizens are justifiable in the eye of these horrors? The scum dancing there on the eve of the Twin Tower-bombings? No fucking way that they deserve a free-pass either.


Of course not, Maarten -

first and foremost I wanted to stress the fact (i.e. countable numbers of dead citizens) that Israël allows itself to commit mass slaughter with precision weaponry and napalm. What the Palestinians do is not right; but Israël just seems not to be willing to engage in any peaceful solution; it ignores UN resolutions by the dozen whilst still seeing itself as a civilized state. I am afraid that it is all alone in this point of view. The illegal settlings are another painful example. The country just continues.

Every killed human is one too many, no matter on which side. But there is something abject and sadistic in the modus operandi of Israël. A few very aged Katucha missiles don't hit anything in particular, and Israël 'answers' with pure carnage. Which serves no purpose at all. Killing children at random and very cruelly? Ask Israël, it's the expert here.
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby fire and fueryIre » 05 May 2014, 16:21

Foxhound wrote:Fuck. You're all thinking like aging hippies and other assorted wimps. The Rolling Stones have made a career out of offending the straight-laced and I'd be surprised and disappointed if the Stones now deviated from the "Screw you" attitude in which they've gloried from the very start of their careers.

What old Keith should do in this situation is say "Screw you man, I like my money!" and set his dogs on any petitioning Pink Floyd member who dares to darken his doorway. Now that would draw both the headlines and the assault charges that we long time Stones fans so love! And of course they'd sell tens of thousands more concert tickets. As they say "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose".

:lol:


Fucking hell. Someone who still takes the Rolling Stones seriously and thinks that they stand for anything other than themselves and their bank accounts!

Thought the last one had died out years ago.

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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby The Modernist » 05 May 2014, 16:54

:lol: Now that's funny.

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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby Jimbo » 05 May 2014, 18:09

What about the fans? They can't help (largely) what their governments are up to. And don't you think what Israel does for its "security" is as bad as what the US does? Iraq and Afghanistan are in ruins thanks not (directly) to Israel but to the US and the UK. Could be wrong but wasn't Holland involved in some atrocity in Bosnia. And don't most western countries ally themselves with Israel? No one is boycotting them. Nor should the Stones or Pink Floyd and that's because by and large Israel is a normal western country with music fans as keen as any western fan.
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby Belle Lettre » 05 May 2014, 18:25

One of the shittiest,cuntiest things Israel has done lately is try to force Palestinian Christians into the Israeli army. They've been talking up said Christians as being more like "them".

Sod it. Carry on with the music..
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Re: Roger Waters-Nick Mason: Why Stones shouldn’t play Israe

Postby Your Friendly Neighbourhood Postman » 05 May 2014, 18:26

Jimbo wrote:What about the fans? They can't help (largely) what their governments are up to. And don't you think what Israel does for its "security" is as bad as what the US does? Iraq and Afghanistan are in ruins thanks not (directly) to Israel but to the US and the UK. Could be wrong but wasn't Holland involved in some atrocity in Bosnia. And don't most western countries ally themselves with Israel? No one is boycotting them. Nor should the Stones or Pink Floyd and that's because by and large Israel is a normal western country with music fans as keen as any western fan.


Up to a point I can understand your POVs expressed here, Jimbo. But I do have my difficulties with Israël... it seems so stubbornly and stupidly unwilling to enter any serious peace process. A situation that's been going on now since... 1967? 1970? 1980? I am no historian and am open to correction.

And the settlers just go on settling, which is unlawful.

I find it hard to accept myself, knowing that Israël is a modern democracy with western lifestyles. But IMHO there is some latent, and sometimes open cruel need for revenge going on there, up to the point of being sadistic in its realization (I pointed out the napalm in Cast Lead, the wilful slaughter of complete innocents, many of them, people who didn't have the slightest chance to defend themselves).

Israël just doesn't live up to its own pretensions, it doesn't even come close. It fails bigtime with regard to its purported standards.

The mass murder in Bosnia was and is experienced as a national shame in Holland. But we didn't commit the atrocities; there is still debate as to what countries were involved in the passivity and 'laissez-faire' attitude that was so harmful. France has been implicated too; but Holland was the main guilty party there.

I can't see much feelings of guilt and shame in Israël after murder spree number so-and-so. Yes, there is official and unofficial opposition there, I know of that; but its impact in terms of realizing changes isn't noticeable.
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