Penk's Prog Odyssey: Yes - Close to the Edge

Do talk back
User avatar
Quaco
F R double E
Posts: 47027
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 19:41

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Yes - Close to the Edge

Postby Quaco » 03 Dec 2018, 19:58

I think Hightea is talking about critics and the general tenor of what's deemed cool, which is one reason musicians hid their progness for years.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

User avatar
PENK
Midnight to Six Man
Posts: 35057
Joined: 07 Aug 2004, 20:12
Location: Stockholm

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Yes - Close to the Edge

Postby PENK » 04 Dec 2018, 09:40

Hightea wrote:We will not even think to comment on your thoughts about Krautrock not being a side sub-genre of prog. Krautrock is a sub-genre of prog if you don't think so you can party with Trump and his fake news.


Well, you're fairly new to the board but there've been countless debates here down the years about what is and isn't prog, the differences between "prog" and "progressive", and so on. There is of course no official arbiter of this stuff anywhere, so it comes down to one's personal viewpoints. There was even a "Prog Canon" series of threads where people started nominating all manner of stuff like Roxy Music, Slade, Donny Osmond, Village People and so on, the qualification seemingly that if the poster liked prog then anything they listened to must be prog...
I don't think it's a very important distinction really, but I will say that for this thread I haven't considered any of the Krautrock stuff; I've tried to stick to more "hardcore" prog (although again that's open to interpretation...).

Hightea wrote:I'll throw this out there. If the rock critics didn't continually throw prog under the bus as inferior uncool music I'm not so sure that Rock wouldn't be in the dire straits its in now. Because rock bands for the past 30 years have had to live up to an unrealistic punk attitude and didn't allow the bands to take there own decisions on what to play with the fear that the critics and fans will label them as not being real or cool has ruined rock music. Sure there were problems with prog especially in the later stages of the 70's but there were problems with punk and disco too. They could have been left alone and all genre could have flourished and maybe blended. Look at the 60's when bands competed with each other on new ideas and at the same time influenced and challenged each other. However, Punk/post punk/new wave were the music darlings of the critic world and ingrained this attitude into the fans because they spoke louder and had the so called cool crowd they won. I agree with Algroth get out of the UK and USA and you will see that prog bands are more respected and as leaders in opposition. Maybe its the reason when we see low level prog bands in clubs or small venues the crowd is very international.


I think you have a point but I think you're also underselling just how fertile and productive the post-punk era was. Sure, punk itself was pretty reductive and in the end a dead-end, as we've seen from the way bands are still churning out the same stuff and dressing the same way forty years later, but post-punk was a huge scene with a lot of different styles and ideas.
The problem, I think, is not so much that rock bands have taken too much from that era but that they haven't taken enough. There has been a dearth of creativity in rock music for thirty years, with a few exceptions of course, and I think there are a lot of reasons.
But yeah one significant thing is the prevalence of the "indie" attitude which is a mixture of the too-cool lo-fi slacker thing (Sonic Youth, Pavement), or in Britain the reverse class snobbery (prog boys are toffs in capes), which means bands don't want to take risks or look silly. They play it too safe and are too concerned about their image - it's a kind of peer pressure. That's something prog bands, to their credit, don't seem to have worried about so much.
GoogaMooga wrote:
Minnie Cheddars wrote:Baron got into a fight with some Satan’s Slaves over some culinary issue

Awful thing when that happens. I had a similar experience at a Tom Jones concert.

User avatar
oliltownofkathlehem
Groovy Queen of the Cosmos
Posts: 35422
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 15:20
Location: bama via new orleans

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Yes - Close to the Edge

Postby oliltownofkathlehem » 04 Dec 2018, 17:07

another fine write-up, penk. i enjoy these things in a sick, addicted way, but i enjoy it all the more when *you* enjoy it. (i'm such a giving fucquin creature.) and while i will not engage in the whole jazz funk debate any more than i will get into the what-is-prog debate, i appreciate yer focus on the tunefulness of yes.

i love this album. i agree with charlie on the remix in this case. i get it when folk have probs with wilson's cleaning everything up, but to me~~in general~~it's a welcome thing. (in the case of tales, it has changed the way i get into the album. fantastic.) then again, i have a very strong anti-murk bias. my ears have gone through so much 70s murk, i find very lil of it endearing. who knows. maybe growing up in enough muddy water has influenced my view on the charm of mud puddles. in general. yeah.



PENK wrote:There is some debate, I understand, about what exactly a "khatru" is. I'd like to open up the floor for guesses.


siberian khatru:


Image

User avatar
Quaco
F R double E
Posts: 47027
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 19:41

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Yes - Close to the Edge

Postby Quaco » 04 Dec 2018, 17:21

PENK wrote:I think you have a point but I think you're also underselling just how fertile and productive the post-punk era was. Sure, punk itself was pretty reductive and in the end a dead-end, as we've seen from the way bands are still churning out the same stuff and dressing the same way forty years later, but post-punk was a huge scene with a lot of different styles and ideas.
The problem, I think, is not so much that rock bands have taken too much from that era but that they haven't taken enough. There has been a dearth of creativity in rock music for thirty years, with a few exceptions of course, and I think there are a lot of reasons.
But yeah one significant thing is the prevalence of the "indie" attitude which is a mixture of the too-cool lo-fi slacker thing (Sonic Youth, Pavement), or in Britain the reverse class snobbery (prog boys are toffs in capes), which means bands don't want to take risks or look silly. They play it too safe and are too concerned about their image - it's a kind of peer pressure. That's something prog bands, to their credit, don't seem to have worried about so much.

Very much agree with this, and much of what Hightea is saying!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

User avatar
Quaco
F R double E
Posts: 47027
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 19:41

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Yes - Close to the Edge

Postby Quaco » 04 Dec 2018, 17:22

Now go back and listen to the beginning of "Close to the Edge" a couple more times till it makes sense. It's the best part!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

User avatar
Hightea
Posts: 1593
Joined: 16 Apr 2015, 02:18
Location: NY state

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Yes - Close to the Edge

Postby Hightea » 05 Dec 2018, 03:03

PENK wrote:
I think you have a point but I think you're also underselling just how fertile and productive the post-punk era was. Sure, punk itself was pretty reductive and in the end a dead-end, as we've seen from the way bands are still churning out the same stuff and dressing the same way forty years later, but post-punk was a huge scene with a lot of different styles and ideas.
The problem, I think, is not so much that rock bands have taken too much from that era but that they haven't taken enough. There has been a dearth of creativity in rock music for thirty years, with a few exceptions of course, and I think there are a lot of reasons.
But yeah one significant thing is the prevalence of the "indie" attitude which is a mixture of the too-cool lo-fi slacker thing (Sonic Youth, Pavement), or in Britain the reverse class snobbery (prog boys are toffs in capes), which means bands don't want to take risks or look silly. They play it too safe and are too concerned about their image - it's a kind of peer pressure. That's something prog bands, to their credit, don't seem to have worried about so much.


Yeah I agree with you for the most part here. Post-Punk -Oh another major pet peeve with me is not only the term but it incorporates way too much different ideas that is should not all be tied to Punk (funny similar to your thoughts on Krautrock and space rock (I guessing) being considered prog).
Don't think I'm not a fan of lots endless post punk ( the part of punk we got early was the CBGB New Wave stuff(Talking Heads and Blondie) it's actually where my punk brother and I could agree. However, by the early 80's he was set and I kept digging more. The addition of synths and back to more experimental type music dragged me in. I've continue to like the certain branches but I've always felt it had more to give.

User avatar
Hightea
Posts: 1593
Joined: 16 Apr 2015, 02:18
Location: NY state

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Yes - Close to the Edge

Postby Hightea » 05 Dec 2018, 04:02

PENK wrote:
Hightea wrote:We will not even think to comment on your thoughts about Krautrock not being a side sub-genre of prog. Krautrock is a sub-genre of prog if you don't think so you can party with Trump and his fake news.


the qualification seemingly that if the poster liked prog then anything they listened to must be prog...


really then they are wrong. My thoughts are based on life experiences, books,endless articles, websites and various discussions, yes its all opinions but I find it funny how I'll look up something today and it will be label as something not prog, yet only a few years ago it was labeled as prog. By the way I defend prog on this site all the time but it really only makes up a 1/4 of my music collection and I'm not even sure that it's that big especially if you are claiming Kraurock rock and others here who claim space rock isn't prog.