Penk's Prog Odyssey: Yes - Close to the Edge

Do talk back
User avatar
The Slider
Self-Aggrandising Cock
Posts: 48262
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 19:05
Location: I'm only here for the sneer
Contact:

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Soft Machine

Postby The Slider » 29 May 2014, 12:48

:)
Complete Ramones Mp3 set on its way

User avatar
Penk!
Midnight to Six Man
Posts: 35784
Joined: 07 Aug 2004, 20:12
Location: Stockholm

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby Penk! » 19 Oct 2014, 22:13

I'm back!

After the World Cup, the summer holidays, the settle into paternity leave, I can finally find some time to sit and listen to albums I'm not actually sure I want to hear by groups I'm pretty sure I already dislike. I'm going to pick up where I left off, wading through BCB's biggest prog names. And what name is bigger than Gentle Giant? Oddly, I always thought that the giant on the Gentle Giant covers looked more like a leprechaun, or gnome, or some small, foolish fellow, daft and gullible, the type you could "borrow" a fiver from and never pay back. A silly image to have, then, as the one most readily associated with your band; and who knows what the actual band look like? At least one of them I imagine having a beard, one probably had a moustache, and one probably had long hair despite being balding. A quick google reveals that I was actually right.

Image

You might by now be forming the impression that I am dismissing the band and, well, you're right. I've heard a few things here and there and not liked them. They always seemed to me the worst exponents of the proggy habit of confusing intricacy, complexity and technical virtuosity with actual quality. The kind of band who thought they were musical intellectuals and wanted the listener to know it. I can't cut any corners in this prog thing, though, and I did already do Genesis. So let's give Gentle Giant a go and see if a proper sit-down listen can convince me I was premature in my dismissal of them, and that they do have something to offer me after all.

Image

There doesn't seem to be any definitive guide to the best Gentle Giant album, so I've selected their second album Acquiring the Taste, because AMG recommends it as one of the best and because the name is pretty appropriate. The cover reminds me of nothing so much as Terry Gilliam's animations for the Pythons, again not something which inspires me to take the band seriously. And nor does the name of the opening track: 'Pantagruel's Nativity' sounds like one of the jokey "Prog Canon" threads a bunch of posters started a few years ago.

The opening of 'Pantagruel's Nativity' is pretty, but silly: some nice melodies rendered in ridiculous ways, chiefly through the awful sounds the band and producer have chosen. I think the early '70s were as much of a nadir for production as the '80s. We then get one of those pointless passages of aimless note-playing that proggers seem to love. Is it just something they do to sound clever and interesting when they can't come up with a real riff or melody?

It's the same story throughout the opening passages of the album: quite interesting compositions, some nice melodies, but always some bizarre, pointless directions taken, some awful production choices, some corny bits and some failure to understand the difference between silliness and stupidity. I do quite like the vocal melodies, although things like the opening of 'Edge of Twilight' serve only to broadcast the singer's technical failings. That particular track drifts fairly quickly into an aimless mess. It's a shame, as there are again some pleasant moments and sounds. And then the album descends into ugly bluesy stomping. Just when I was thinking I could listen to it, it becomes this irredeemable porridge of everything I dislike about early '70s rock. There is a title track, another classic prog example of two minutes of worthless synth noodling nobody cares about, but it's sandwiched in between two pieces that just hold no appeal for me. There are occasional breakdowns and doubtless some of the band's trademark intricacy and fiddliness, but it's all drowned out by the stomping and bawling. Eventually, a flute breaks through into 'Wreck' and things calm down, and then 'The Moon Is Down' starts things back in the right direction, with some enjoyable organ noodling and always-welcome mellotrons, although the vocals here are overdone, and 'Black Cat' is the album's highlight, rather delightful with a clever and catchy pizzicato figure backed by groovy rhythm work and some light guitar effects, although the vocal is weak again, unfortunately. It's a disappointment that the band didn't seem to have a good singer, because I think it's in the vocal melodies that their strengths often lie. Halfway through, the band drop out and the string section have a little frolic, which is amusing but again frustrating: just let the nice song play!

We finish with 'Plain Truth', although I wish we didn't. It's not worth mentioning. And there's nearly eight minutes of it.

Acquiring the Taste is a frustrating listen, because the mid-section of uninteresting pounding dominates too much. I think that the start and beginning of the album are more what I want to hear: not everything works, but there are some interesting things happening. My general impression of Gentle Giant is of a band who did have some talent and imagination, and plenty of technical training and ability, but just didn't have the taste, guidance or judgment to do something convincing with it. In another era - the modern era, even - they might have been more interesting, but prog was the wrong direction. This album didn't have much of the overcomplicated twiddling I've previously associated them with, and it had some undeniably attractive melodies and passages, but none of the good things lasted long enough. I will still commit myself to another one of their albums at some point, though.

Intriguing fact that Wikipedia threw up while I was reading about the band: one member has a son who plays in a band that has a dancer named Erotic Volvo listed among its members. Erotic Volvo paints himself blue and wears a big red poncho thing covered in blue rubber gloves. The poncho doesn't disguise the Converse All-Stars poking out at the bottom.
fange wrote:One of the things i really dislike in this life is people raising their voices in German.

User avatar
yomptepi
BCB thumbscrew of Justice
Posts: 36415
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 17:57
Location: well

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby yomptepi » 19 Oct 2014, 22:29

You need to play it at least five times before it makes sense. At least five times. Then buy Three friends, and all your efforts will be worthwhile.
You don't like me...do you?

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 13843
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby The Modernist » 19 Oct 2014, 22:31

yomptepi wrote:You need to play it at least five times before it makes sense.


Then throw it away.

User avatar
yomptepi
BCB thumbscrew of Justice
Posts: 36415
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 17:57
Location: well

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby yomptepi » 19 Oct 2014, 22:37

Since Penk is making the effort to listen to these records, I think it is worth pointing out that they do not show best after a listen or two. They need an investment of time and effort to get the best from them. And in my experience,the early GG are all well worth that time and effort.

Back to your trite Small Faces records G. After all, even a three year old could appreciate them.
You don't like me...do you?

User avatar
The Modernist
2018 BCB Cup Champ!
Posts: 13843
Joined: 13 Apr 2014, 20:42

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby The Modernist » 19 Oct 2014, 23:04

Actually I did listen to A Gentle Giant album once. Cack handed attempts at medievalism with clumsy, ugly song structures..just your thing! They should be consigned to the dustbin of history along with your other tastes.

User avatar
zoomboogity
Shakin' All Over
Posts: 5307
Joined: 17 Jul 2003, 07:42
Location: Screwball Cultural Center

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby zoomboogity » 20 Oct 2014, 00:16

It wasn't until their fourth album, Octopus, that drummer John Weathers joined. The drummers before him weren't quite up to the task, making things lumber where they should soar. Gentle Giant is really polarizing, even at their best (or "best") - lots of people find the twiddly bits and the singing (especially Shulman's) a total turn-off. Try the Free Hand album, it's probably the closest they get to something you may like. If that one doesn't do it for you, then time to move on to something else. It's one thing for a piece of music to reveal itself after a few listens, it's another when it feels like you have to work at it. (I never "got" Genesis either!) Credit to you for at least giving it a shot.

Image

"Quite."

User avatar
Six String
Posts: 23075
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 20:22

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Dark Side of the Moon

Postby Six String » 20 Oct 2014, 05:23

Jeemo wrote:
Lord Rother wrote:
So I guess it's an interesting exercise to review one of the all time classic most played albums the world has ever seen as if it's a new release, which seems to be what he's done here, but 40 years ago most of those comments would have looked ridiculous


Penks review pretty much sums up what I thought when I heard it 40 years ago. Never understood why it sold so many copies.

Just because something is the most played or best selling is no measure of its quality.


I was surprised myself at the time how popular the album and the band e came from that point on. Before that it wasn't as easy to find copies of their new album. A local would array a few copies but you had to know when to look and who had money in high school for lps? I bought some but not a lot. At least in the U.S. they were a bit underground until Dark Side.
I do remember it took a while for the general music buying public got hip to the album because I remember people coming up to me and asking if I'd heard the new album by Pink Floyd and thinking it had been out for months by that time. I liked the album just as I had the previous albums by the band. I was a big fan. I just got burned out on them after their popularity meant they were on every rock station, every house you partied at, at the clubs between acts, now super markets, etc. in 1973 it was an important album in my collection so even though I don't play it often anymore but I still hold onto it and will probably keep it until I sell off most of my collection, whenever that might be. Technically it is a marvel for the time. Nobody's records sounded like theirs and this was a big deal even for them. It might be harder to appreciate that aspect coming to it decades after the release. Context can be important.

Although I do like post Syd Pink Floyd, Dark Side was the sound of a different band and imo they went downhill from there.
I prefer anything before Dark Side to anything after Dark Side. Yes, even Obscured By Clouds!
Everything is broken
B. Dylan

User avatar
Goat Boy
Bogarting the joint
Posts: 32974
Joined: 20 Mar 2007, 12:11
Location: In the perfumed garden

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby Goat Boy » 20 Oct 2014, 09:16

Aren’t they one of the five greatest bands to ever walk the planet?


Fucking preposterous band of course. Frustratingly they actually have good moments and they were clearly talented chaps but they are fatally flawed by a singer who sounds like some 1970s childrens TV presenter and a total lack of taste. It’s a shame because I find them the most interesting of all the prog big hitters but they do something really stupid about every 30 seconds.

After reading Penks post this morning on the bus to work I actually listened to some of In A Glass House but I had to turn if off because it annoyed me too much. I then listened to Five To One by The Doors and it made The Giant sound like effete mummys boys in comparison. They completely kicked their arse.
Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.


Copehead wrote:a right wing cretin like Berger....bleating about racism

User avatar
ConnyOlivetti
Probing The Sonic Heritage
Posts: 10588
Joined: 06 Nov 2003, 07:14
Location: Below The North Pole
Contact:

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby ConnyOlivetti » 20 Oct 2014, 15:37

The G Experience! wrote:
yomptepi wrote:You need to play it at least five times before it makes sense.


Then throw it away.


You really should try stand up comedy!
Charlie O. wrote:I think Coan and Googa are right.


Un enfant dans electronica!
Je suis!

User avatar
Quaco
F R double E
Posts: 47382
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 19:41

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby Quaco » 20 Oct 2014, 15:56

In general, music should be immediate. Even if it doesn't all make sense right away, there should be something that snags you, makes you want to try again. In my life, Gentle Giant have been the single biggest exception to this rule. I didn't really like them for years. I persisted with them merely because they were always lauded in the same sentence as more accessible acts like Yes, King Crimson, etc. And I have to say, I am glad I did. But it was anything but immediate.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

User avatar
Penk!
Midnight to Six Man
Posts: 35784
Joined: 07 Aug 2004, 20:12
Location: Stockholm

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby Penk! » 20 Oct 2014, 17:22

See, people always say about these prog bands that "oh you need to hear it eight times to really get it". But, you know, I listened to it twice, and I'm pretty damn sure I know those are some horrible fucking synth sounds, that none of them can produce anything approaching a decent vocal, and that they have more bad ideas than good ones.
Like I said, and like Dougie said, they do do some decent things and have some nice ideas thrown in there. They just don't know how to filter themselves and I think they had a lot of bad influences. It doesn't take a dozen listens to realise that.
fange wrote:One of the things i really dislike in this life is people raising their voices in German.

User avatar
Quaco
F R double E
Posts: 47382
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 19:41

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby Quaco » 20 Oct 2014, 17:29

(I never say that. I'm only saying it about Gentle Giant. The other prog bands I took to easily.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

User avatar
yomptepi
BCB thumbscrew of Justice
Posts: 36415
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 17:57
Location: well

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby yomptepi » 20 Oct 2014, 17:55

penk wrote:See, people always say about these prog bands that "oh you need to hear it eight times to really get it". But, you know, I listened to it twice, and I'm pretty damn sure I know those are some horrible fucking synth sounds, that none of them can produce anything approaching a decent vocal, and that they have more bad ideas than good ones.
Like I said, and like Dougie said, they do do some decent things and have some nice ideas thrown in there. They just don't know how to filter themselves and I think they had a lot of bad influences. It doesn't take a dozen listens to realise that.



What I will say is that I liked Three friends from the first time I heard it. However, the rest of their catelogue remained unappetising to me right up until three or four years ago, when I decided I really must make an effort with the other albums. I still struggle with a lot of it. It is weird and often willfully difficult. However, I hold onto those guitar lines, and listen to the drums, and sometimes it all falls into place. I like ATT. I like Glass house and most of Octopus. But the rest is still out of my grasp. Maybe in another 30 years I'll try again.

When C and I saw them in Seaford, they were absolutely amazing. It certainly all works live.
You don't like me...do you?

User avatar
Guy E
Posts: 13301
Joined: 16 Jul 2003, 23:11
Location: Antalya, Turkey

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby Guy E » 20 Oct 2014, 22:37

penk wrote:See, people always say about these prog bands that "oh you need to hear it eight times to really get it". But, you know, I listened to it twice, and I'm pretty damn sure I know those are some horrible fucking synth sounds, that none of them can produce anything approaching a decent vocal, and that they have more bad ideas than good ones.
Like I said, and like Dougie said, they do do some decent things and have some nice ideas thrown in there. They just don't know how to filter themselves and I think they had a lot of bad influences. It doesn't take a dozen listens to realise that.

If you eat dog shit for dinner every night for two weeks straight you'll develop a taste for it... Tobasco Sauce helps.
["Minnie the Stalker"]The first time that we met I knew I was going to make him mine.

User avatar
Neil Jung
Watcher Of The Skies
Posts: 11428
Joined: 18 Jul 2003, 18:36
Location: In the deepest ocean, bottom of the sea

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Gentle Giant

Postby Neil Jung » 20 Oct 2014, 22:42

They're not an easy listen. I've got a double vinyl best of called Pretentious by Gentle Giant, plus Octopus and a couple of their later albums. I rarely play any of them as, despite years of trying, I don't really get them. I should, but I don't. I like the choir boy type singing and the quiet bits but for me they are generally ruined by Shulman's (?) strident shouty vocals. If only he'd shut the fuck up, they might have been good.
“Erratic associate member”

User avatar
Penk!
Midnight to Six Man
Posts: 35784
Joined: 07 Aug 2004, 20:12
Location: Stockholm

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: Genesis

Postby Penk! » 01 Apr 2017, 20:35

Goat Boy wrote:Outside of the group of 40/50 somethings who loved this stuff when it first came out prog means very little. I mean who the hell talks about Genesis these days?


Image
fange wrote:One of the things i really dislike in this life is people raising their voices in German.

User avatar
naughty boy
hounds people off the board
Posts: 20252
Joined: 24 Apr 2007, 23:21

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: New Reviews Forthcoming

Postby naughty boy » 01 Apr 2017, 20:43

Dougie will never know the hate I have in my soul for him and his awful and misguided 'conversion' :evil:
Matt 'interesting' Wilson wrote:So I went from looking at the "I'm a Man" riff, to showing how the rave up was popular for awhile.

User avatar
Penk!
Midnight to Six Man
Posts: 35784
Joined: 07 Aug 2004, 20:12
Location: Stockholm

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: New Reviews Forthcoming

Postby Penk! » 01 Apr 2017, 20:45

Dog Pickle 'BEAUT' wrote:Dougie will never know the hate I have in my soul for him and his awful and misguided 'conversion' :evil:


Just wait until I put up my review of Porcupine Tree tomorrow, John!
fange wrote:One of the things i really dislike in this life is people raising their voices in German.

User avatar
naughty boy
hounds people off the board
Posts: 20252
Joined: 24 Apr 2007, 23:21

Re: Penk's Prog Odyssey: New Reviews Forthcoming

Postby naughty boy » 01 Apr 2017, 20:50

GAH!
Matt 'interesting' Wilson wrote:So I went from looking at the "I'm a Man" riff, to showing how the rave up was popular for awhile.


Return to “Yakety Yak”