Carly Simon - You're So Vain - yea or nay?

[Davey the Fat Boy]

I mean...you're certainly free to say that. I'll leave you to Radar Love or whatever.

[fange]

Why? Did i say i wanted to be left with 'Radar Love'?

[Count Machuki]

Everything good about 70s record making is present in this track!

I might say the opposite here - there's quite a lot in this record of what made many 70s songs annoying as hell.

I'm closer to that point of view. The louche sheen just reminds me of the worst of Station Wagon Rock. I don't hear much interesting happening in this track at all.

That was a great quote by that drummer, even if "he was like a computer" as a compliment feels a little weird.


and 70's record making would ideally by a Stevie Wonder-penned song produced by George Clinton at Sly Stone's house and released on JB's People label, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

[naughty boy]

Have you FORGOTTEN Pere Ubu?

[Count Machuki]

It's played out. It's a "direct address" song...who, me? What the fuck did I do? It's SO Rolling Stone. It's got a muddy backstory so it won't die. It's played out. The vocals sound removed, like the damn thing is an out of body experience for Carly - why can't she be INTO it? dontchdontchadontcha
Then you've got the stunt backing vocals - was that necessary? Was it purely a calculated PR move? Did Jagger have any business being there?
Also Pere Ubu, of course.

[Joe Baxter]

The drums are a big part of it; they sound dreadful to my ears.

I don't know if you mean the drum sound or the playing.

Either way, you reminded me of something I read here a few years back and enjoyed revisiting: Andy Newmark talking about Jim Gordon's performance on this song...

I sat 5 feet away from Jim Gordon, in the drum booth at Trident Studios in London, as he recorded Carly Simon’s "You’re So Vain" in 1972.

I was Carly’s road drummer and played on a few tracks on her No Secrets album, however I wasn’t cutting it when we recorded "You’re So Vain". So Richard Perry, the producer of that album brought in the heavyweights, Jim Gordon, Klaus Voorman, and Nicky Hopkins to record "You’re So Vain". Carly’s road band, which included me, was sidelined for half the tracks on that album, except for Jimmy Ryan who played on everything and played that great guitar solo on “You’re So Vain”.

Anyhow, I was totally cool with Richard Perry’s decision to bring Jim Gordon in. I was in London for the duration of that album, as road bands often were back then, on call at any time. I saw this as an opportunity to watch Jim up close. I had been listening to Jim Gordon and Jim Keltner ever since Mad Dogs and Englishmen. I asked Jim if he would mind if I sat in the drum booth and watched him play. He was totally cool with that.

So I watched Jim do 40 takes (Richard Perry was famous for doing a lot of takes) of "You’re So Vain". You see, back then the live performance in the studio had to contain all the magic in the basic backing track. There was no fixing it or replacing parts after the track was recorded. You could repair little things but the vibe and groove had to be all there in the performance. Perry pushed players right to their limit. I liked his style. He had a vision and wasn’t going to stop till he got it out of the musicians. He made great bloody records that all stand up today under scrutiny. He always used the best players on his records. As a player, working for Richard Perry was a step up the ladder in session world. It meant something.

Anyhow, I watched Jim like a hawk for 4 or 5 hours, playing that song over and over again. It’s one thing to hear a player on a recording but to see a player playing live is a whole different ball game. Body language reveals so much about where a drummer is coming from. Seeing Jim play up that close, and fine tuning his drum part, was like getting intravenous Jim Gordon… his DNA being injected into mine. And I got it, big time. I saw what he had and what I didn’t have. But not for long. I really understood where his notes were coming from and went away from that session knowing what I had to do to improve my act.

Jim never played a rim shot on 40 takes of "You’re So Vain". He hit the middle of the snare drum so hard that the head was completely caved in, in the middle. It was a 6 inch crater in a perfect circle. He hit the exact same spot every time he hit the snare drum. That means all his backbeats sounded as identical as humanly possible. Engineers love consistency from players. I was suffering from total rim shot dependency, playing tight, funky and snappy, New York style, like Bernard Purdie. I am a New Yorker. Jim had that West Coast lazy thing going on. His notes seem to have length. They breathed. Legato drumming I call it. There was all this air around each of his notes. And his groove was so relaxed and secure and comfortable. It was like sitting in a giant arm chair that fit perfect. He made all the other players sound amazing right from Take One. And he made the recording sound like a real hit record right from Take One.

I was blown away. The tom tom fills were like thunder. I still copy him doing that today and think about him in that room every time I do it. I put my left hand on the high tom and my right hand on the floor tom and play straight 8th notes (both hands in unison) that crescendo into a chorus. Just like "You’re So Vain".

His drumming was intelligent and impeccable on that record. There was no click track either and Richard Perry was very demanding when it came to tempo. (By the way, click tracks have ruined pop music today. Don’t get me started.) That’s something else I had to improve on. Playing time. I’m still working on that. Jim nailed that track at least 40 times and every take on the drums was brilliant and usable as a final drum track. However Richard Perry wanted to hand pick where Jim played certain fills and all the other cats too. So that’s where a studio musician’s discipline comes into play. You have to play the same track for hours and maintain the feeling and learn every note in your part till it’s written in your DNA. Then on top of that, you have to take instructions after each take from the Producer telling you exactly what to amend or delete in your part. It’s a lot of mental work going on. Not all players are cut out for this kind of disciplined playing, and designing a part. That’s what great records are. Great parts. Jim was like a computer. He did everything Richard Perry asked of him and still kept all the other stuff going in his part, take after take after take. And he hit the drums so damn hard. His snare drum was monstrous and it wasn’t even a rim shot. I was stunned at the power in all his notes. He saw that whole drum part in his head as if it was written on paper and handed to him. And take after take, for maybe 4 or 5 hours with breaks, he played it spot on every time.

I got it… big time. Thank God I was replaced by Jim that day. What I got from that experience took my playing to another level completely. I put funky drumming on the back burner after watching Jim and started trying to make my notes real long, relaxed, with lots of air around them, giving each note it’s full sustain value, and even tuning my drums so that the notes would sustain for their full value. And every note was thought out. That’s what Jim did. He didn’t play any throw away notes. Not one!! Not even an unintended grace note on the snare drum. That’s what making records is all about. You have to own and believe in every note you play. Every 8th note on your high hat has meaning and character and tells a story. You can’t just be playing mindless time with a back beat. Drummers who do that sound bored and uninvolved. A drummer has to be involved in every note and put life into each one. This is what Jim did. I know this for sure. It’s a subtle thing but it makes all the difference in a player. Discipline, restraint, and conviction in every note. That’s when real music starts to happen.

That's brilliant.
I voted good.

[naughty boy]

I don't even hear a strong melody.

It's the sort of thing a kid would come up with for a school production - you know, 'I walked down the street/and I lost both my feet'.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

For me the key to its greatness are those insinuating piano runs in the intro (first right hand, then echoed strongly with the left). But there isn't a thing about the production I'd change. Richard Perry was the king of the world in those days.

[Sneelock]

I don't even hear a strong melody.

It's the sort of thing a kid would come up with for a school production - you know, 'I walked down the street/and I lost both my feet'.

Get me Richard Perry on the phone, I think we've got a hit!!!

[BARON CORNY DOG]

I think if it's on the radio in the background I don't really mind it. But if I actually listen, I don't really like any of it. The piano and strings disgust me. I don't like most of the guitar bits (though it's better towards the end). And I only really like the vocals when Jagger is singing backup (I generally prefer him in that role).

[sloopjohnc]

I couldn't get enough of this song when it first came out and I was in 6th or 7th grade. I loved it then and love it now.

[Davey the Fat Boy]

I'm beginning to think "BCB for the deaf" was a flawed idea.

[The Modernist]

I don't like the nagging verse:
"You come into the room and you put your feet up on the sofa and you don't even take your shoes off.."
It's like the record invented first world problems.
And it's a dull tune.
Nay.

[toomanyhatz]

I'm a bit confused. You're using quote marks, but you're clearly not quoting the song. And there's not even a verse that says anything like that, by my interpretation - it's very personalized. Are you in the wrong thread?

[Matt Wilson]

[Charlie O.]

I'm surprised to see complaints about the tune, of all things. I'll grant that some of the lyrics are a little clunky, but the song is hardly melody-deficient.

[fange]

What melody there is simply doesn't grab me much i'm afraid, Charlie.
It kind of floats along on that mid-tempo pop feeling before the chorus comes in with a bit of a hook, but it's one that ends up bugging me because i don't like the constituent parts all that much.

[trans-chigley express]

I don't like the nagging verse:
"You come into the room and you put your feet up on the sofa and you don't even take your shoes off.."

I think you've stumbled across my wife's version

[trans-chigley express]

I just listened to the song for the first time in years and I like it, probably much more than I expected. I concentrated on the drumming after reading that guy's analysis and it left me a bit mystified as it sounded like pretty run of the mill 70's soft rock drumming to my ears, but I did enjoy the drummer's write up on it.

[naughty boy]

but everything good about 70s record making is present in this track!